In this episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cosentino is joined by co-host Shormila Chatterjee, Vice President at EY in the Infrastructure Advisory Practice, Ottawa. They sit down with three exceptional leaders: Dani Delaloye, Chloe Ho and Joanna Kervin. These trailblazers share their journeys in the male-dominated infrastructure industry, discussing how they've overcome challenges, seized opportunities, and made significant impacts in their respective fields. “I think we've made a lot of progress over the past years in terms of, overt sexism, for example, is no longer tolerated. But there's unconscious bias, there's microaggressions, that women, queer people, people of minorities that are facing that make it just a little bit harder. So at every level, you see more and more drop-off. And I think that's why we're still continuing to see this kind of leaky pipeline effect and why we still don't have that glut of people that are entering the industry and move all the way up to the senior leadership positions.” — Dani Delaloye.
In this episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cosentino is joined by co-host Shormila Chatterjee, Vice President at EY in the Infrastructure Advisory Practice, Ottawa. They sit down with three exceptional leaders: Dani Delaloye, Chloe Ho and Joanna Kervin. These trailblazers share their journeys in the male-dominated infrastructure industry, discussing how they've overcome challenges, seized opportunities, and made significant impacts in their respective fields.
“I think we've made a lot of progress over the past years in terms of, overt sexism, for example, is no longer tolerated. But there's unconscious bias, there's microaggressions, that women, queer people, people of minorities that are facing that make it just a little bit harder. So at every level, you see more and more drop-off. And I think that's why we're still continuing to see this kind of leaky pipeline effect and why we still don't have that glut of people that are entering the industry and move all the way up to the senior leadership positions.” — Dani Delaloye.
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Riccardo Cosentino 0:05
You're listening to A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, which aims to highlight the challenges but also the wins of women in infrastructure. In each episode I, Riccardo Cosentino, will be sitting down with a panel of women in different areas and stages of their careers to ask how the industry can be better at inspiring women to choose a career in infrastructure and how we can support her while she's there. It's my hope that this conversation can elevate the voices that need to be heard and reach the people who still haven't listened. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Navigating Major Programmes and hosted by me, Riccardo Cosentino. Let's get into today's conversation.
Riccardo Cosentino 0:53
Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast. I'm joined again by three great leaders and this episode I actually have a co-host. Our previous guest has kindly agreed to co-host these episodes with me. So maybe let's start with you, Shormila. Can you introduce quickly yourself as the co-host of the podcast?
Shormila Chatterjee 1:16
Sure. Thanks, Riccardo. I just never left from the last one. But I'm Shormila. I am a vice president at EY in the infrastructure advisory practice here in Ottawa. And thank you for having me again. I really appreciate it.
Riccardo Cosentino 1:28
And let's get to the guests and maybe let's start with you, Joanna.
Joanna Kervin 1:31
So, thank you so much Riccardo and Shormila for inviting me here. My background is civil engineering. So I graduated with a degree in civil engineering from the University of Waterloo. So, really started my career in the transportation world right from the beginning. I worked as an engineering consultant for about 15 years, and then I made a switch to the public sector and worked for the city of Toronto, and a number of years later moved to the TTC to help in the delivery of a new Subway Extension. I'm now back in a different part of the private sector in the contractor side, working on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. So I've been pretty much in every area of infrastructure throughout my career. And it's made for quite an interesting journey so far.
Shormila Chatterjee 2:19
Sure. Yeah.
Riccardo Cosentino 2:21
Thank you for joining us. What about you, Chloe?
Chloe Ho 2:23
Hi, everyone. I'm so happy to be here on the podcast. I myself actually am a graduate from the University of Waterloo as well, but I specialize in accounting. So I did my Masters in Accounting. How I let myself into the infrastructure space is because I got very deep into accounting advisory for regulated utilities. And from there I kind of expanded into deal advisory work across infrastructure, energy renewables, and while more recently, energy transition. So I've had the benefit of doing a bit of a (inaudible) in the U.K. for the last couple of years with PwC and have done several interesting European transactions in the energy space as well and just returning back to Toronto. I'm very excited to rejoin the WIN group here.
Riccardo Cosentino 3:06
Welcome. And then finally, Dani.
Dani Delaloye 3:10
Thanks, Riccardo and Shormila for having me. My name is Dani Delaloye. I'm a principal engineer at Mott MacDonald and currently working as the tunnel manager for the Calgary Green Line project in Calgary, Alberta. I did my undergrad in geological engineering at Queen's University and then stayed on there to do my master's and tunneling and underground excavation design. And I've been working in tunneling ever since. So I worked for about 11 years in Vancouver on everything from small diameter water lines to major infrastructure tunnel projects for transit and roads, and just joined the Green Line project about last year, moving to Calgary to support the project.
Riccardo Cosentino 3:48
Chloe, I think you're a minority today, surrounded by four civil engineers.
Chloe Ho 3:52
I know. I feel blessed to be so.
Shormila Chatterjee 3:56
We won't talk about drinking out of hard hats today. (Inaudible) Sorry, do you want to go ahead, Riccardo?
Riccardo Cosentino 4:08
No, go ahead, Shormila.
Shormila Chatterjee 4:08
It's interesting. I think Joanna started a little bit with, your story sounds quite intentional that you went into transportation. Chloe, you talked a little bit about how you found infrastructure. And maybe curious to pick on Dani a little bit. How did you pick tunneling? It is quite a male-dominated, even more so than infrastructure, generally. How did you fall into infrastructure and tunnel work?
Dani Delaloye 4:30
So I picked engineering in high school based on a grade 11 career fair that I went to. And I learned that engineering was a different discipline at university than science. I thought it was all the same not knowing any engineers in my life. And I really liked the problem-solving aspect of engineering. So I went out to Queens and was very lucky that the first year in Queens is general so you don't actually have to pick your major. I went in thinking that I wanted to do chemical engineering because it's one of the ones I actually knew existed but fell in love with geological engineering when I took the fourth course in first year, and I got to go on field trips and spend time in outside because I thought that was just the greatest thing ever. So from there, in second year I took my first course in underground excavation design. And I thought that was the coolest thing ever, I still get that kind of rush of adrenaline anytime I go underground. I feel like the Indiana Jones music comes on. So I, from that point on somehow knew I wanted to do tunneling and underground excavation design and did my masters specifically in that, and that just reiterated everything for me. I got to travel around Europe, I went to France, Italy, Austria, Germany in the east, Sweden, Norway, doing research and on construction sites out there during my master's. So I got a lot of exposure to tunneling projects. And it's just been from then on for me.
Shormila Chatterjee 5:49
And Joanna, you sounded like you already knew you wanted to go into transportation, which is I think where... no?
Joanna Kervin 5:55
No, I didn't. (Inaudible) So, that's, that's the thing. So I, initially it was funny, I was just telling my son this story. When I was in high school, I was convinced that I was going into medicine. So I'd actually already got myself all lined up, I took all the courses in prerequisites, I had a letter of recommendation from my family doctor who had gone to Western, I was all set to go. And he actually, he inadvertently, I think, said something that scared me as a 17-year-old and said, well, medicine's just this amazing vocation. Because once you're a doctor, you're a doctor for the rest of your life. And as a 17-year-old, that's a pretty daunting prospect. And I had a couple of cousins who were in engineering. And I thought, well, okay, I've got all the sciences. So what else could I do other than medicine? And so I actually applied to engineering. So I ended up in civil, and I really didn't know where I wanted to go with it. But I was very lucky, I got my first work term at Waterloo with Transport Canada in their Airport Planning Division. It's Transfer Canada at the time, owned all of the airports in Canada. So they had a whole division at the federal government that did the planning for all of these airports. And I learned so much. And there were a bunch of really young, wonderful engineers who really gave me a lot of great advice on my career and how I could explore options within the transportation field as part of my engineering degree. And that's really what got me started, I didn't really know that was where my interest would lie. But that very first work trip was what did it.
Shormila Chatterjee 7:37
So, no Joanna MD, then?
Joanna Kervin 7:39
No, but I've had an amazing career, like, I, no regrets whatsoever.
Shormila Chatterjee 7:45
Good. And then Chloe, you talked a little bit about getting exposure, but what made you kind of finally make the switch between more pure accounting and then the deal structuring side of things?
Chloe Ho 7:54
Well, it's interesting, because when I was navigating my career, I didn't really have role models in engineering. So it was actually either becoming a doctor or going into accounting. So it was either going to med school or accounting, and I am quite good in in finance aspects of things. And I think what really got me into infrastructure is because it's such a nuanced niche that's very well regulated. And it was interesting to see how, you know, the policies and everything can actually very fundamentally impact all the financials of an infrastructure project. And that lent itself into wanting to participate in the deal making side of things to see where we can actually support the transactions and the funneling of the financing that's going into that sector. And that really got me very excited about it, especially with all the renewal of infrastructure that's happening right now.
Shormila Chatterjee 8:45
And so one thing to I think, like now that we're celebrating women in infrastructure through the WIN network, and I know that all of you are also part of other organizations as well, what does it mean to have been nominated to be part of something like the women's infrastructure network. Has that impact, when you're nominated, did that impact your career at all? And have you sort of been able to leverage the network throughout your career? Maybe I'll start with you, Dani.
Dani Delaloye 9:10
So I've become more involved in WIN since moving to Calgary last summer. I'm part of the steering committee out in Calgary so I think that has felt like my stronger connection to WIN and it's been a huge I think benefit for me coming into a new area. I spent 11 years in Vancouver so one of the things that scared me the most leaving Vancouver was that I was leaving my network, well-developed contexts and new clients, they're new, the people I had been working on projects with there for a long time. So joining WIN in Calgary and being part of the steering committee there have been able to connect with just some amazing women in the industry in Calgary and kind of better understand how the Calgary market works. And it's been really helpful for me entering a new environment. So I think that's been really helpful and made the transition easier and also more exciting because just being able to connect with new people through the network.
Shormila Chatterjee 10:04
Yeah, I had the exact almost similar exactly the same experience. I moved to Ottawa from Toronto about six years ago. And it was the same, like I said it was like, okay, I'm going to use WIN to short circuit, that awkward dating phase of networking that you kind of get into. And then it was, it's been great to like participating. And I'm also on the Organizing Committee, which has been really a great way to sort of meet people. And Joanna, what was your experience, like being nominated and (inaudible)?
Joanna Kervin 10:27
Well, actually, I was introduced to WIN by a lawyer that I had been working with when I was at the TTC and she was one of the external councils that was representing one of the landowners. And she said, we've got this great group of women, you know, that we're just getting it started. And it's a great opportunity to meet other women in the infrastructure space. And not necessarily just engineers, you know, we have people from finance, from legal, from some of the owners, from big construction companies, and so on. And so she brought me into the network. And it was a real eye opener for me, because I had felt fairly isolated, because I was one of few women in TTC leadership role. And so I felt quite isolated there. And this was just a wonderful place to meet lots of women who are in this space. And then when I was nominated, I was so flattered to be nominated. You know, I didn't necessarily see myself in the same way that the people who nominated me saw me. And so that was really a real eye-opener for me. And in addition to that, it gave me a lot of food for thought about how do I make sure that other women come up through the organization and develop the leadership skills, so maybe they can be the ones nominated? So really, it did a lot of things for me things that I wouldn't have anticipated when I first started attending some of the events.
Shormila Chatterjee 11:49
And maybe before I ask Chloe, the same question, I just want to pick on that a little bit. Like when you said, you didn't see yourself the same way that your nominator saw you. Was it lesser than? What was that delta?
Joanna Kervin 12:01
So I just saw myself as one of, you know, somebody working in this space and working on a subway expansion project, and that it wasn't a really big deal.
Shormila Chatterjee 12:11
Oh, okay.
Joanna Kervin 12:12
Yeah, that wasn't really, it wasn't anything special. And you know, and I've just gone through my career, doing what I really enjoy doing and working hard and trying to make a difference and that sort of thing. But that nomination really gave me a different perspective on how the outside world sees me, and sort of elevated my opinion of myself, I guess, to some extent, but also made me realize that I could really be a role model for a lot of other women who want to, or have an interest in this particular space.
Shormila Chatterjee 12:45
Oh, no, that's great. And Chloe what was kind of being nominated, being part of WIN, has it meant to you?
Chloe Ho 12:52
Yeah, actually, I just wanted to say like, reflecting on what, Dani and Joanna, you both said being an engineer in this field, I just think that it's great to be hearing from your (inaudible), to hear your experiences, and more people getting exposed to what is all the hard work that is going into that. And I think this community just fosters that platform for us to appreciate each other more, I think me going into WIN, what's very beneficial is having that public announcement that you know, we're here for each other, there is someone that you can reach out to, I think that's super important, because I get some LinkedIn messages sometimes reaching out wanting to connect and go for a coffee chat, because they might be going into a similar career path. Or having really sought out that network to build for themselves, I think this platform just becomes a very open forum for more to be able to join and participate in the group. And I also want to say that when I was first introduced to the WIN network, I was actually introduced by two male mentors who nominated me or and encouraged me to participate in something like this. So I really do believe that WIN is very open to both male and female to better understand the different dynamics. And I think there are a lot of male supporters that might appreciate a platform like this as well to help elevate the female leaders in the field. And I think the more that we can bring everyone into the group, it's probably going to just make it grow even broader.
Shormila Chatterjee 14:19
No, that's a great perspective to and good to see is that, you know, you had real champions in your corner, men and women, which is great to hear, and maybe just kind of moving into actually talking about leadership. When we spoke before officially kind of hitting record, Dani, you had punned a term that I actually not hadn't heard before about sort of leaky pipe syndrome, and the challenges of leadership, I think we're seeing really a concerted effort in the industry about trying to break women in early, you know, from high school and university sort of into sort of the entry level but this kind of middle management and moving into leadership roles is really where we're seeing this gap and I just wanted (inaudible) you and I just to say like, I've used it multiple times since I heard it from you. But I just wanted to get your take on why do you think that is? And sort of what you think is sort of the status of women in leadership and in infrastructure today?
Dani Delaloye 15:14
Yeah. Thanks, Shormila. I think it's a fairly complicated answer. I don't think it's just one thing. But I think the leaky pipeline has been studied. There's lots of papers, you can go read on what we call the leaky pipeline, and often referenced in science, technology, engineering, and math or STEM, but I think it probably applies to infrastructure as well. And I've seen it in my career firsthand, where, when I entered as a junior engineer, I looked around and had quite a few peers who are women. And now further along in my career, especially being in tunneling, I look around. And I'm often and almost always the most senior woman in the room on calls with, like, 30 people on my project right now. And every other (inaudible) and I'm the one single female voice in the room.
Shormila Chatterjee 15:55
Oh, my gosh.
Dani Delaloye 15:56
So it's challenging. And I think the reason people leave STEM fields and infrastructure fields, there's a lot of different reasons. One, there's a lot of construction related to it. And construction is challenging. It's a male-dominated field, it requires travel, it requires long hours. And that's not always conducive to if you want to have a family. And there are I think, women who choose, after having children, to stay at home, which is a totally valid choice, but the rate with which women are leaving STEM in infrastructure fields is actually quite a bit higher than other professional fields. So it's more than just people staying at home to have children and choosing to be childcare. So I think it's that we don't make return-to-work easy in the infrastructure field. We don't typically have flexible working hours. But it also has to do with the inclusion piece and not feeling included. So I think we've made a lot of progress over the past years in terms of, overt sexism, for example, is no longer tolerated. But there's unconscious bias, there's microaggressions, that women, queer people, people of minorities that are facing that make it just a little bit harder. So at every level, you see more and more drop-off. And I think that's why we're still continuing to see this kind of leaky pipeline effect and why we still don't have that glut of people that are entering the industry and move all the way up to the senior leadership positions.
Shormila Chatterjee 15:56
And Joanna, I know, you're also really passionate about elevating women in leadership and in construction as well, in particular, I'd love to hear sort of your experience in leadership, when you were aspiring to be a leader. And then now that you are one, has it changed marketedly? Or is it still kind of a big issue for you?
Joanna Kervin 17:39
So you know, I had some amazing male mentors. When I started out in consulting engineering, I had, my first two bosses were just phenomenal, really, hugely supportive. They had my back, right, every step of the way. And they were in fact, my second boss was the one who really pushed me into a leadership role in a professional organization. And he said, I think you'd be great at this, you should get involved. And then when I, after I'd been involved for a couple of years, he said, you should seek election to the Canadian board. And I thought, what? Really? He said, absolutely. He said, I'll back you, I'll make sure that, you know, people are aware of who you are, and we can help promote your cause. And I ended up being elected. And I ended up becoming the first woman president of the Canadian organization. And then I went on to the international board. That was my first real experience of leadership, being, you know, being the face of this organization, and I didn't even know that I was the first woman ever to do it. When I sought election, I had no idea. It never even crossed my mind. It never occurred to me that at that point, which would have been, it would have been the mid-90s, that a woman had never been in that role before. But it was a wonderful place to get a feeling of what leadership is all about, and how you can really influence an organization and set a strategy and really grow the organization. So that really helped me tremendously. So now, you know, I've gone on to other, you know, in different steps throughout my career, and I've been able to get formal training in leadership. And I was able to do that at the City of Toronto. They had an executive leadership program, within the city, custom-made for municipal government. And it was fantastic, absolutely fantastic program. So I was able to get a formal training, even though I'd been in the leadership role before. And that helped me tremendously when I went to TDC to become one of the executive on the subway expansion. So I got helped and guided along the way in these different steps. So now I'm in a position where I want to help other women take that kind of a journey and get that kind of support at each step along the way and we're seeing changes, we really are. So a couple of really good examples, our project, big multibillion-dollar transit project, the project team is 30% women.
Shormila Chatterjee 20:12
Oh, wow.
Joanna Kervin 20:12
That's a pretty big deal. In the construction space, that is a big deal. And we have women who are in the manager, director-level roles. And we're bringing up a new generation of women who are incredibly smart, talented, dedicated people. And they are the leaders of the future. And so we've created within our organization, the Women in Crosslinx Group, and they can share their own stories. And that, to me, is how other women realizing that there's support there, that there's all sorts of different ways that you can navigate your career in this kind of environment. So that group is really strong, and they're going to take that experience to other projects. And I'm really proud of that. The other thing that I do is I lecture at universities. So I lecture at UFT, Waterloo, TMU and York University. And one of the reasons for doing that is that a lot of the courses in construction management, project management infrastructure, they rarely have women who are lecturing, or guest lecturers. So to make sure that they can see a woman in a leadership role in those courses is incredibly important. So I will take every opportunity I can to do that so that women can see that there are women in the field, who can go from being just, you know, a civil engineering student, and can get up to a leadership role on the executive of these massive projects.
Shormila Chatterjee 21:42
Wow. And it sounds like with that kind of, first of all, I feel very lazy. Now that you're talking about all those things. But second of all, just thinking about it sounded like you didn't even have to stop to think, is this an option to be a leader, you had such sort of fierce champions behind you propelling you was that the case or?
Joanna Kervin 22:01
I think it was a combination of things. I've always been an incredibly curious person. I had that first boost from my first two bosses into that leadership role. And really, I kind of think of it as sort of unleashing that curiosity. And that willingness to explore opportunities and sort of expand my horizons, I think they were really supportive of that. So that almost gave me permission, I guess in a way, to just take my curiosity and run with it. And that really helped. But I also needed to have that support along the way to, say, from the City of Toronto, Joanna's a good candidate for this program, because it was quite a limited program, not everybody got accepted into it. But I did have the support from my boss to do that. So it's a combination of things. I guess there's some inner motivation, probably, for women who really do want to move along, but they need the support at the same time to say, yes, this person is great, they would be an excellent candidate to participate in a program like that. So I think there's two different things that have to go on here that can really, really support women.
Shormila Chatterjee 23:09
And Chloe, I'd like to hear from you because (inaudible), you know, obviously, I was focused quite a bit on construction. But you know, finance that big four has its own culture that used to have, you know, this traits of toxic masculinity as well. What has your experience been in leadership and being a woman in sort of finance consulting and that side of the coin?
Chloe Ho 23:27
Yeah, I think that the challenge in being in the finance world as a woman is, you know, the investment banking and M&A world is very male-dominated. And as an advisor, as a consultant, you're in a room and having to kind of, you know, speak to an audience full of men and having that authority over leading the conversation as soon as you enter. And I think sometimes the loudness or a certain level of quietness might be found as okay, not being able to speak up. So I think having to get over that hurdle and just understanding that there is value in every opinion and perspective that's brought in the room, that really kept me into the room because I think that achieves a better outcome in order to, you know, get more of a diverse view. And I think being at the firm and showcasing that there is a path moving upwards in the M&A world as a woman, I think it's important for all others to realize that you can balance it out in this finance world. It's not just working nonstop into the early morning am and not having a life. I just basically want to make that statement and be that demonstration that you know it can happen and there can be a life outside of it. So I make sure I'm crystal clear and very vocal about things I do outside of just my day to day job. I pursue a very active lifestyle. I have hobbies outside of the consulting life. So I think showcasing it speaks louder than just the words.
Shormila Chatterjee 24:57
And I'm just curious because I know when you're introducing yourself, Chloe, you're talking about your experience in the U.K. Is there a different culture there? Or was it kind of similar in terms of kind of your experience with your male counterpart?
Chloe Ho 25:08
Yeah, it's interesting, there is a certain level of unspoken hierarchy that I kind of noticed in Europe. And I think it might also be in the way in the way of delivery between the North American style and and European style of framing things. And I think what was helpful and challenging in experiencing a completely new environment, and just understanding how to still navigate the room, and know how to work it under a different environment. And what it really did is just empowered me to feel confident in speaking amongst different types of audiences. And I think it grooms you to become a better leader, because you're more aware of all the different styles that exist, and how the way you communicate might be perceived differently across the network. And I think actually, spending time in Europe gives me a broader sense of connectivity with the women across the globe as well. I think increasing that like it can go beyond just, you know, Toronto, Canada, like there is actually a lot of women globally, that's all pursuing the same goal. And I think it's great to be able to meet them across the globe and in doing so. And I think Dani, for example, you like having experienced seeing all the European tunnels, I can relate to that. Like, it's great to see all the different styles and dynamics of working transactions and infrastructure and just taking a little bit of those learnings and what's good about it and bringing it back as well.
Riccardo Cosentino 26:35
So you obviously decided to enter infrastructure and you probably knew it was a male-dominated industry. Did that ever put you off? Or maybe you were not even aware that was a male-dominated industry? And I'm asking this question because there might be some young women who are, might be put off by entering an industry, which is male-dominated? Was that ever a factor for you, Dani, maybe start with you.
Dani Delaloye 26:59
I don't think it ever factored into my decision in terms of whether or not I wanted to enter engineering or tunneling. I think I knew for sure, like you go into first year engineering, you look around, it's pretty obvious that it's male-dominated, I don't think you can get away not knowing that and going into construction and tunneling, again, you look around, you never are not aware that you're the minority in the room. But I've always kind of liked to work in challenging environments. So maybe it's because I'm a sucker for punishment, how can I not wanted to? I just decided to go into that field to start with, but I mean, I just, I followed what I was passionate about, really, it wasn't a factor of whether I was a minority in the field or not, that went into my decision as to do tunneling. But how has it affected my experience, it's never made me want to leave. But I've definitely noticed differences. And one of the ways I found easiest to articulate it early in my career is I would go into a room where I had a male peer with the same qualifications, same level of experience, I always felt like I was going in with my cup of tea, and I had to build everyone's confidence in the room to fill my cup. And I felt like my male colleague went in with a full cup, and it was his to lose, so you end up at the same place, or maybe I ended up a little bit higher, because I'm actually better than he was, but it took a while to get there. And once you have that confidence built in you, I find I succeed. I haven't had any challenges, but it's the process that you have to continually go through to build that confidence. And have your voice heard and show that yes, I am capable. And I feel like you do, or I often perceived that I have to continually prove myself. And I haven't felt that same way in talking to my male colleagues.
Shormila Chatterjee 28:43
And I'm curious to add in Chloe, maybe do you have similar experiences? Has it been different for you? Maybe, Joanna first or?
Joanna Kervin 28:51
I felt the same way. Absolutely. You know, every time you're walking, I mean, I was a consultant. And I felt that every time I walked in the room, I was always having to prove there was a reason why I was there, and that I actually belonged. And that was really hard. That's hard on the ego. When you're always on your back foot or you know, like you say the glass is empty. And you're always having to prove that you're there and you add value. And that persisted for a really long time. But it did change. And it did change when I worked for the city of Toronto, because I was in charge and I was in these very public very complex projects, and I was out in the public eye. And you know, I was representing the city and I had the backing of my boss, but I was the one who was speaking. And I think it changed the way that I saw myself that I wasn't having to prove anything. It was just you know, I was there as the representative of the organization. And I don't feel that way anymore. I'm going to give you my opinion, which (inaudible), but you know, I've got 35 years of experience under my belt at this point. But I kind of lost that need to prove myself quite a while ago, and it's very freeing. When you finally get there, it's very freeing to be able to just walk in a room and say, you know, here I am, I'm here to participate. And there's no question that you're there for a reason. You have a right to say what you want to what you want, you have an opinion, and you expect to be respected, be treated respectfully, and not dismissed. And if that kind of behavior happens, well, there's going to be consequences to it. You know, it does take time, though. And I'd say for women, it's harder to get there.
Dani Delaloye 29:14
Yeah, I still feel like I walk into there and I say, hey, I'm Dani Delaloye, I'm managing the tunnel for the Calgary Green Line projects, and people's eyes go wide. And then I say something tactical, and they're like, oh, she actually knows what she's talking about. Wow.
Joanna Kervin 30:47
And that is just a tragedy.
Dani Delaloye 30:50
It really is.
Joanna Kervin 30:51
It's a terrible way to have to be in an environment like this, like, it shouldn't be a surprise. And that's where we need to get to, right? That's the goal is that the person who walks in the room and says, I'm the project manager for tunnels. Oh, okay. Nice to meet you. And that's the end of it. So you know, that's what, that's the goal. That's where we need to be. It shouldn't matter who the person is. It's just, that's who they are. And that's what they're doing.
Chloe Ho 31:20
Yeah, there was a state saying that stuck to me, which was you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And that was a mentality of a male colleague who gave me some advice. And I took that to heart because there were often times where I over prepare and I overthink about what I am going to say that I become so quiet in the room, because I feel like it's already said, but then I hear people kind of just repeating each other or just saying things anyways. And I got to a point where, okay, I stopped thinking and combating it within my mind, I'm gonna make my piece and have my statement. And it will contribute to the conversation in a better way in the end. And I think what really gave me the extra confidence is, now that I am leading the diligence and leading the advisory role, I have to command the room. And I have to tell them, what the risks are, what the issues are. And I think that authority and experience that has helped build the confidence and I think being a role model in those rooms, that subtle, that silent acknowledgement is known across other females that are in the room as well. So I think being there physically present and demonstrating that already does support a lot of other women.
Dani Delaloye 32:33
I was having a really interesting conversation, actually, with my partner this morning, Chloe, that I think kind of touches on something you said. And he was saying, I have this female colleague, she has these really good ideas, but she's not that good at articulating them forcefully. She says, I think it's like, how do I get her to speak more forcefully? And I kind of questioned him. And I said, why should she have to speak forcefully to get her opinion heard? Like, why is it that her communication style has to shift to meet your male colleagues? Why can you not train them to listen better and actually hear her in her style? And his vibe was like blown (inaudible). So I think it's something that we talked about how do we encourage women to be more forceful? How do we give them more confidence? How do we get them to like, stand up and state their opinions? But also, why is that the norm? Like why is that the only solution for them to get their opinions across?
Joanna Kervin 33:31
Yeah, no, it's true. And you know, I've also, I've got a number of male colleagues who have actually come to me to say, how do I support my female managers? Like, how do I support them in their roles? And one of them in particular was saying to me, well, this manager, incredibly talented, knows what she's doing. But I've got some of her direct reports coming around her to me and saying, well, she told me to do this, but I'm not entirely sure. Are you okay with that? And I said to him, I said, you need to cut that off right now. You need to cut that off and say, no, she's the manager, she makes the decisions. You go and talk to her, because that's the worst thing that can happen. And it does happen with this, you know, unfortunately, with some men may not like having a female manager or they're not, they've never had a female manager before. So they're going to do these entrance around them. But I give huge kudos to my colleague who came to me and said how do I deal with this? So there's coaching on both sides, you know, there's coaching of our male colleagues to make sure that they understand that maybe some of their behaviors aren't quite right. And maybe they need to adjust their approach to things. And that's going to help our female colleagues. And if we're open enough to our male colleagues in trying to coach them and help them approach things differently. We're all going to benefit from it.
Chloe Ho 34:59
I think what's been really evolving is everyone is being more open and speaking up when they see something as off. I think it often used to be dealt with, maybe more silently. But now I feel very comfortable and confident in sharing amongst other women and men as well, if you see something.
Riccardo Cosentino 35:20
I wanted to switch gear a little bit, because we talked about the challenges, but and also, you know, this is the fourth episode, the podcast, and I kind of started realizing something that I would like to address, which is, we're talking about the challenges, we're talking about working in a male-dominated industry, but women accomplish amazing things in the infrastructure sector. And I think I'd like to start talking about that. And so I thought, a good way of doing that is asking each one of you, which was your what what do you feel is your biggest achievement? What's your, the project that you're most proud of? You can only pick one. I'm sorry, I know. It's difficult. And you know, yeah, because ultimately, it's about the work we do. Right? And it doesn't really matter what gender you are. And I think we need to start talking about that a bit more. And not just about the issues surrounding the industry. Then maybe, Chloe, let's start with you. I know it's not a project with you. It's probably a deal.
Chloe Ho 36:15
Yeah. Yeah. Well, my most recent exciting deals are actually in the transition energy space. I've touched now a few that is on the electrification and EV sector, that's quickly evolving. And I know I think I heard the news that for example, Honda's about switching their facility, also to the making. So a lot of excitement into being able to work with investors who are looking for ways to fund and finance these deals, I think it will fundamentally change how we generate electricity, how we use it, and how we can be more energy efficient as well in the long run. And this is a very exciting time, because there's just so much money going into the sector to renew things. And I mean, infrastructure has when I started, it's very contracted, stable returns, all things like that. But I think we're at this pivotal moment where even with the digital infrastructure, like the definition of infrastructure is expanding so drastically. It's exciting to see where it is to go. Another I guess, exciting field is I also touch on the digital infrastructure side. So data centers and telcos. And that's very exciting as well with the fiber rollouts and where we're going with Gen AI and all the data centers that's required. So I think even the way we work will be fundamentally changed by these infrastructure developments in the next five, 10, 20 years.
Shormila Chatterjee 37:39
So much for picking this one, Chloe. (Inaudible)
Chloe Ho 37:46
Proud of making deals out.
Riccardo Cosentino 37:50
Dani, I'm really curious because I love tunnels. So I'm (inaudible).
Dani Delaloye 37:55
It's really hard to pick a favorite little project. So you're, but I find I always my favorite is always the current project I'm working on. So Green Line is near and dear to my heart right now. I've moved back to Calgary to work on the project. I grew up in Calgary, so it's pretty exciting for me to be working on the first large diameter transit tunnel project in my hometown. So that to me is really exciting. We'll see that first rail tunnel boring machines in Calgary in the near future, I hope. So everyone, stay tuned, I'm sure there'll be a naming competition. But before this, I was working in Vancouver on the Broadway subway tunnel project. So that was pretty awesome as well, another transit tunnel in the backyard, I'm really excited to ride that line when it gets constructed, because it'll be the first transit tunnel that I've worked on from the design through to seeing the end of construction. And that's been a big journey as well. So lots of fun, but I think I have quite a few more gray hairs than I did at the start of that project. And it's been different for me, because that project, I was working on the designer side on the deep design build contractor side, so the designer for the contractor. And now I'm on the technical advisory side on Green Line. So working for the owner. So seeing both sides of the project has been a real contrast as well.
Riccardo Cosentino 39:13
What about you, Joanna?
Joanna Kervin 39:14
Well, I have to say it was the subway expansion project that I worked on for TTC. I spent nine years on the project. and I actually did the planning for the project when it was at the City of Toronto. So I was effectively on that project for about 13 years altogether, including the funding negotiations for the financing of the project. And so I was able to be there right from the planning and right to opening day, which was an experience I don't think I'll ever, I won't ever feel the same way about a project. But there's a specific part of that project that I'm super proud of. And that is one of the stations that are at the very end of the line in Vaughan, where we built a subway station. There had never been rapid transit in Vaughan ever until that point in time. And we worked very closely with the city of Vaughan and the private developer to kick off the development of the new downtown for Vaughn around the subway station. And I spent 18 months negotiating a change in our design, like a big multimillion-dollar change to our station designed to support that new downtown, and to create sort of the framework and the infrastructure connections to all of this new development. And funny enough, I just drove by it today. And it never ceases to amaze me just how much development has happened in that area. Within the first two years of the opening of the subway, there were four condo towers, three of which were 50-stories tall, that were built. And there's, there have to be at least a dozen now. And there's a new park, there is a library, there's office buildings, there's retail spaces, and it's really just shooting over the ground. It's a remarkable thing to see. And to know that you were there, right? Right when the subway was just starting to be constructed, and the station is now there and operating and supporting this brand new downtown in this entire new community. It's pretty phenomenal to see.
Chloe Ho 41:19
My sister actually work, lives in Vaughan. And now I just want to do a drive around that way and appreciate it.
Joanna Kervin 41:26
It's astounding. Like the park, we helped, I helped negotiate a deal for this new public square, part of which sits on top of the station box and I negotiated a deal so that TTC wouldn't actually end up having to maintain the area on top, and it became part of the public square. And you know, there was a lot of creativity that went into the negotiations. And I just look at the end result. And it's absolutely fantastic.
Shormila Chatterjee 41:51
I mean, if that's not a reason for a key to the city, Joanna, I don't know (inaudible).
Joanna Kervin 41:56
Well, I was invited to a number of the ribbon cuttings for some of the new buildings that were built there. And it was pretty, it was a pretty amazing thing to see. Yeah, it really was. Yeah, it really was, it's maybe not the prettiest station. I mean, it is quite lovely. You don't see a lot of it from the surface, but it's the one that really set the stage for all of this to happen. And that's really that's the power of this big infrastructure, especially transit infrastructure is that it can provide the foundation for brand new communities. And this one's a pretty great example of it.
Shormila Chatterjee 42:31
Wow. And actually it's really, this is kind of, it's really inspirational to kind of, I like how you pivoted, Riccardo, to the positive. And actually thinking about I was talking about this with some of the folks at the WIN awards earlier is, you know, thinking about it's 10 years of the awards. And it's kind of a hokey question, but I'll ask it anyways, what would you tell your 10-year -ld self about joining infrastructure? And maybe I'll start with you, Chloe.
Chloe Ho 42:57
I think there's actually just so many different dimensions to infrastructure where you can participate. So it's kind of just dive into it, take your play, and you know, there I think we might come into infrastructure thinking that, okay, it's all that static, always the same. But every single time I look into new transactions, it's just completely different. The economics, the operations, everything is just very interesting. So I think it's just get right in, there is a strong community now. So it's actually a very cool place to be.
Shormila Chatterjee 43:31
And what about you, Joanna?
Joanna Kervin 43:32
I'd probably say to my 10-year-old self to let your curiosity go, you know, let it take you where it's really exciting and interesting. And don't be afraid to make changes because I did make a number of changes in my, along my career. And I always questioned that, like, is this the right thing to do? Am I making the right choice? And I would say to my 10-year-old self, don't be afraid of making changes or changing things when you think there's maybe something more exciting to do. Don't be afraid of that. And you know, and surround yourself with people who were going to support you. Because you're probably going to need that to help you make good decisions.
Shormila Chatterjee 44:13
And what about you, Dani?
Dani Delaloye 44:14
Well, Joanna stole my line because I was going to say is stay curious because that's always my advice to my 10-year-old self. To ask lots of questions. Don't ever feel like you know everything because I feel like I go through confidence waves where I think I know everything and then all of a sudden, I realize I know nothing. But I think the other piece is to take risks. And I think that's something that as women we're reluctant to do often and I think Chloe, you were saying this before you miss 100% of the shots you don't take so take those shots for yourself out there. When I came to Calgary for this position on Green Line, it was a risk I didn't actually think I was gonna get the position and now that I've been doing it for a year, I feel way more confident and that I've learned so much but I still have so much more to learn. So I think just put yourself out there. You can do it. And like Joanna said, surround your people who will facilitate your success.
Riccardo Cosentino 45:07
I mean, this has been a great conversation. And I think we're coming towards the end of the podcast. But maybe before we wrap up, I want to thank all of you for joining today as being a really great conversation. We touched on some really important topics. And yeah, and I think it's the positive I think we need to start introducing because we need to start talking about the achievements and celebrate I know that WIN awards do that, celebrating the achievement of women, but I think we need to start showcasing those achievements through the projects or deals that individuals like yourself work on throughout their careers. So on that note, Chloe, Joanna, Dani, and Shormila, thank you for joining me today. Shormila, thank you for co-hosting.
Shormila Chatterjee 45:49
Sure, Riccardo. Thanks so much.
Riccardo Cosentino 45:50
And yeah.
Shormila Chatterjee 45:51
If I can just say thank you all. And Riccardo, thank you for again, donating your time, and your podcast platform to WIN. We really do appreciate it. I think this has been such a, I've been on such a high the last couple of months being able to showcase women as part of the sort of 10 years of the WIN awards. So I really appreciate that you, Riccardo and all of you, panelists, for joining us today. Thank you so much.
Joanna Kervin 46:13
Well, thanks for inviting me.
Chloe Ho 46:15
Thank you so much.
Dani Delaloye 46:16
Thank you.
Riccardo Cosentino 46:16
Thank you and please join us in two weeks for the next episode and you, please subscribe to the podcast wherever you get podcast. Until then, bye now.
Riccardo Cosentino 46:29
That wraps up today's episode of A WINning Perspective: the WIN Canada Podcast. I hope you found this episode's conversation as compelling and inspiring as I did. If so, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Navigating Major Programmes, the podcast that aims at elevating the conversation surrounding major programmes. Thank you for tuning in to A WINning Perspective: the WIN Canada Podcast. Let's stay connected and keep the momentum going to empower women and engineer change.