In this episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cossentino sits down with three nominees of The Women’s Infrastructure Network (WIN) Canada WIN Awards: Divya Shah, Tamara Vrooman, and Kimberly Doran. Despite working in senior roles in a male-dominated industry not designed for them, the panelists have achieved success and professional recognition. They share valuable insights and advice for transforming the industry from dry to progressive, and pose the question: Is it a dumb question or the next revolution in the industry? Along with expanding professional networks and securing sponsorships, these three leaders in major programmes share their hopes and actionables for women, and allies, in the industry. “We're just talking about infrastructure, which is about design and about building things and about the future. Yet, we really need to design our organizations for that future. And what I find is a lot of the time we're trying to put women, particularly I agree with you, mid-career, but that mid-career is what leads to senior career, into roles that were not designed for us…We have to change the way that we design our organizations so that they're fit for the purpose that we want them to serve, which is to get more diverse people, including women into leadership roles, particularly in an area like infrastructure.” — Tamara Vrooman
In this episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cossentino sits down with three nominees of The Women’s Infrastructure Network (WIN) Canada WIN Awards: Divya Shah, Tamara Vrooman, and Kimberly Doran. Despite working in senior roles in a male-dominated industry not designed for them, the panelists have achieved success and professional recognition. They share valuable insights and advice for transforming the industry from dry to progressive, and pose the question: Is it a dumb question or the next revolution in the industry? Along with expanding professional networks and securing sponsorships, these three leaders in major programmes share their hopes and actionables for women, and allies, in the industry.
“We're just talking about infrastructure, which is about design and about building things and about the future. Yet, we really need to design our organizations for that future. And what I find is a lot of the time we're trying to put women, particularly I agree with you, mid-career, but that mid-career is what leads to senior career, into roles that were not designed for us…We have to change the way that we design our organizations so that they're fit for the purpose that we want them to serve, which is to get more diverse people, including women into leadership roles, particularly in an area like infrastructure.” — Tamara Vrooman
Key Takeaways:
Divya Shah is the Managing Director at the Canada Infrastructure Bank, leading investments in trade, transportation, and critical minerals. With 18 years in project finance, Divya shapes investment strategies, oversees business development, and manages financial structuring to asset management. She began her career at Infrastructure Ontario during its early days of public-private partnerships, marking her start in transformative infrastructure projects.
Tamara Vrooman serves as the President and CEO of Vancouver International Airport, the second-largest international airport in Canada and home to the largest building in British Columbia. With a rich background in banking and finance, Tamara has financed numerous public and private infrastructure projects. Her extensive experience includes roles as the Chair of the Canada Infrastructure Bank board and Deputy Minister of Finance for British Columbia, overseeing Partnerships BC.
Kimberly Doran is the Vice President and Geotechnical Practice Lead at AtkinsRéalis. As a passionate advocate for gender parity, she co-founded and chairs the ExcELLEnce Employee Resource Group, dedicated to promoting a diverse and inclusive culture. Outside of her corporate responsibilities, Kimberly is deeply involved in her field, serving as the Finance Director for the Regina Geotechnical Group and participating in the Transportation Committee of the Saskatchewan Association of Consulting Engineers (ACEC-SK).
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Riccardo Cosentino 0:05
You're listening to A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, which aims to highlight the challenges but also the wins of women in infrastructure. In each episode I, Riccardo Cosentino, will be sitting down with a panel of women in different areas and stages of their careers to ask how the industry can be better at inspiring women to choose a career in infrastructure and how we can support her while she's there. It's my hope that this conversation can elevate the voices that need to be heard and reach the people who still haven't listened. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Navigating Major Programmes and hosted by me, Riccardo Cosentino. Let's get into today's conversation.
Riccardo Cosentino 0:53
Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast. I'm here today with three great leaders that happen to be women in the infrastructure sector. And I will kindly ask each guest to introduce herself. So I'll start with you, Divya.
Divya Shah 1:13
Sure. Thank you, Riccardo. And thank you for hosting this podcast. I am honored to be doing this along with Tamara and Kim, who I admire very much. So just as introduction, my name is Divya Shah. I'm a managing director here at the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I head up our investments within the trade, transportation and critical minerals sector. And what this essentially means is creating a strategy for the sector investments, creating an investment product, doing business development, and then finding projects for which we will do commercial financial structuring, as well as then taking our investment products to the board and then working through with the client to achieve financial close and then asset management to a certain extent. My history in this sector basically came around. I've been doing this now for six years at CIB, but I've been in the project finance world and doing project finance commercial structuring for public projects for about 18 years. And I started my career in a company called Infrastructure Ontario back in 2006, when they were just beginning. I was still one of the top 50 employees if I'm not wrong, I think now they're at 700, and this was their world where I think BC had already started doing PPPs, but Ontario, this was our first foray into the public world of public-private partnerships. And I was one of the analysts. And that's how I started my career in this sector. And I'm really thrilled to be a part of it and excited to see where this takes me as I go in the future. Tamara?
Tamara Vrooman 2:57
Yeah, thanks very much, Divya. And I, too, am delighted to be participating in this today. I am the president and CEO of the Vancouver International Airport, the second-largest international airport in the country. And we operate all aspects of transportation and aviation infrastructure, as you might expect, as well as the airport, actually happens to be the largest building in the province of British Columbia. So there's all sorts of infrastructure that we operate here at the airport. In addition, I have been the chair of the Canada Infrastructure Bank board. I have been the deputy minister of finance for the province of British Columbia with oversight for Partnerships BC, our public-private partnership organization in British Columbia. And I have a banking and finance career where I financed many public and private infrastructure projects. So happy to be here as part of the WIN Network podcast. Kim?
Kim Doran 3:50
Awesome. Thanks, Tamara. Pleasure to meet both Divya and Tamara on this podcast as well as in other encounters. And, you know, one of the things I always say is I learn something every day in my career. And even today, I learned from Tamara that the biggest building is the airport in Vancouver. So that's, that's awesome. So I work with AtkinsRéalis as the practice lead and vice president for Geotechnical Services in Canada. So what that means is we have engineers sitting across the country. And my role is really to bring the best team and best people forward to execute our projects for AtkinsRéalis. In this role, obviously, I do a lot of managing. But prior to taking on an operations role, I did work a lot on major projects in the rail and transit and infrastructure sector. So one of the things I always said as getting into my career was I want something where I can see something be designed and built. And that was truly what I got the opportunity to do for the course of over 10 years within my career. I was on the design team. And then I saw those major projects being executed in the field. So it was like really bringing something to light which inspired me to be an engineer, and which is something that I want to kind of pass down in the STEM fields to women and obviously to men as well, but it's really the legacy that I want to take forward in addition to my operations role in geotechnical practice. I also am the chair of the ExcELLEnce Employee Resource group within AtkinsRéalis. So ExcELLEnce is actually named by our members. But ExcELLEnce is really bringing in the English and French for women. And it's really an employee resource group to support and advocate for women within our organizations. So a lot of just networking, bringing women together, and then obviously advocating for the needs in order to drive change within our industry and within our organization. So it's been really fun on this journey so far. And I'm looking forward to really how it continues to span out in terms of my involvement in ExcELLEnce.
Riccardo Cosentino 5:35
Excellent. Thank you for that great introduction of three of you. Maybe I can kick off with a question. And Divya, you touched upon a little bit. How did you end up in infrastructure? And even more importantly, infrastructure being a male-dominated industry, was that ever a consideration as you were evaluating your career options, studying from university or even when you graduated? I think we've had discussion on previous episodes where you know, it can be daunting to be facing a male-dominated environment or even an environment where you are different, even if he's not male. So maybe Kim, starting with you, if you don't mind?
Kim Doran 6:18
Yes. Interestingly enough, you say, when we come into university and take on a STEM career, in my university class, I was one of two women in my graduating class. So it was very daunting to say the least. One of the things I really remember about my early career was obviously sitting in male-dominated meetings. But we were preparing one day for a meeting. And my boss said to me, I was kind of presenting all the information to him and saying what he needed to kind of present and say, within the meeting, and he's sits down and says to me, why aren't you presenting this information, I kind of looked at him like, well, I don't, I shouldn't be in that meeting, like I was very hesitant. He's like, you prepared this information, you're more prepared than I am to present this and you should be there, you should be the one speaking. So of course, I was very nervous. And I way over-prepared for the meeting going into it. And that's one thing I think that really set me up for success is being prepared for those situations, and then realizing that I actually do deserve a seat at that table. So even though I was surrounded by men, I was confident in what I was presenting, fully prepared for being there. And then it just kind of put myself at ease in terms of, you know, being in this industry, I, too, deserve a seat at the table. So it was very much an inspiration for myself in my early career. And it allowed me to kind of build that confidence to be part of the larger industry and a male-dominated industry. So yeah, I guess passing it over to you coming into an organization with 50 people in it very rapidly growing. Did you see a similar situation where you really built that confidence in your ability to kind of be at the forefront?
Divya Shah 7:57
It's really interesting. You said, I never thought of it as a male or female when I joined the company. So just a little bit of background. 20 years ago, I came to Canada, I did my MBA. So my entire goal after my MBA was to find a job in Canada so I wouldn't be sent back. And I, actually, out of MBA school, fortunately now it's changed, but back then, the only two careers they asked you to think about after MBA were consulting, and investment banking. No other career existed, there was nothing about infrastructure, real estate, project finance, those kinds of careers don't exist out of MBA. And it's really odd because they are so tangible and satisfying. And so I actually started my career in CIBC in the retail banking division. And I think for every day that I was there, I was grateful. But I knew this was not where I belonged. And when the opportunity for Infrastructure Ontario came up, I jumped at it, even though it was a new organization who had not done anything before, primarily because it was an opportunity to do pure project finance and learn something on the job that no one had actually done before. And weirdly enough, so I was, I think, the fourth person in the project finance team, all the other three were males, but it was so fluid, the conversation and at that point at IO, there was no concept of, you know, male/female experience, there were no egos. We were all there to accomplish one thing. It was execute projects and execute them really well. And because no one had done this before, whether you were a geologist, whether you were finance, whether you were banking, whether you were a hospital guy, it did not matter. We all brought something to the table. And we all sat around in a true collaborative sense to create. And it was some of the most beautiful times I've had in my career and I think it really helped me grow and actually appreciate what true diversity around the table brings. Because you know, we use diversity and inclusion quite a bit in our space. But then you don't want to listen to those ideas. And this was a time where having no egos was so beautiful, it was really refreshing for me and I maybe had rosy-colored glasses because I was still very young then, but I didn't see a challenge in being in front of and those are the days when you would be sitting in front of a room of 20 men. And as finance, one of our job is to challenge. You know, challenge due diligence, challenge numbers and push back on certain things. And so, I don't know, maybe it was naivety. But I never thought of it as a gender issue. I would, I was just doing my job. It was as simple as that. And I was maybe a nobody then, so it didn't make a difference. And I had to just deliver and execute because I was thinking about I have to build a career in Canada. And I will do that no matter which way. So it was, maybe, a different lens. Tamara, what do you think?
Tamara Vrooman 11:08
Well, just listening to you there, Divya. It's interesting, you talk about no egos. That, I thought, was not my experience, maybe my, being in my career a little bit longer than the two of you, I think, and also going into quite established organizations. So when I was first woman to be the Deputy Minister of Finance in the province of British Columbia, you know, the provincial government, it was like 135 years old, then. So it's been around for a long time. And in the case of, in the case of the airport, also the first woman to lead the airport. The airport is about 80 years old then. So in both cases, long traditions, frankly, have male leadership and male culture. And so like you, the first little while, there was hardly any women, certainly very few peers, but also, I think the hardest part was no women and role models or mentorship roles. And so the men who were very supportive of me early in my career, I had to seek them out. And they do, they did exist even then. But they were really important to giving me, similar to you, Kim, that encouragement that no, you did this work, you take it forward. And so I always tell younger people going into an organization, you may not find exactly what you expect or want, but there's always some, at least one person, and chances are more than one that is going to be the one that can support you. And I really encourage people to look for those people and seek them out. And then when you get the opportunity, be that person for the new people that are coming in to your organization. And I think that's super important in an area like infrastructure, because why is infrastructure important? When you think about it, infrastructure is one of the most important things that we can do to secure the future that we want, right? If we build infrastructure that's dirty, or doesn't connect rural communities is available for certain aspects of society, the economy, we fundamentally change the future of our cities of our communities and of our country. So if you're future-focused and you want to make a difference in the world, infrastructure is probably the most important place to do that. Because it requires us to make big decisions in order to get the assets that are needed for the future. And so it's really important that we have diverse perspectives when we're creating infrastructure, because we're creating them for a diverse future, I hope, and therefore, having those voices around the table. So that's been a little bit my experience, not quite 50 people with no egos, although I'm a bit envious of your description, Divya. That's a great entrepreneurial place to start.
Divya Shah 13:43
I will say though, I have to say that I think that was the first five years. And very soon after that, that was not my experience, in most cases. I think I was lucky to start my career in an industry that is this challenging with the experience I had. But I know now that when I look back or even as I'm in meetings today, even after 18 years, it's still challenging, you know, you are at loggerheads. even in simple things like performance reviews. Just the approach that women take versus men for the same candidates. There's a lot of behavioral issues that are talked about or, you know, style issues that are talked about for women and then for managers become skilled. So it's always hard versus soft. And there's some interesting biases that people hold on to which come out in different ways. And I feel as you get, you know, more mature in your career, either, it's more evident. And I don't know, I don't know how either of you think of that like as you have moved through your career, like, do you see a change? Or have you always seen it being tougher now it's easier to manage a different situation?
Kim Doran 15:01
Divyah, I think that's very interesting because I was just thinking in my head about egos and I think I've just learned to navigate them better as I progress my career. And honestly, it comes down to almost, we're our own worst enemy in this situation, because I think of this scenario where actually I just got approached to be part of a board of directors for a certain organization. And I looked at the description, I'm like, actually, that one point there actually don't I don't meet that requirement. But and so the person that approached me for this board position said, interestingly enough, we didn't expect to meet all of these points. And I think the one thing that I've seen as very evident is women need to make sure that they check the box on everything in order to kind of advance where men are more willing to take a chance, I would say, and they, both the male and the female could easily execute and fill that role. But I think women are just more hesitant to fail or to maybe take a risk. So I think I've learned to appreciate that kind of risk-taking and not checking all of the boxes from my male counterparts to really kind of take something from them and be like, you know what, I can probably try that and I might actually succeed or it'll be a challenge for me or I think it just puts me on perspective that I appreciate the approach that men take, even if it is a bit egotistical to that regard. Tamara, I guess, given the lengthiness in your career, do you feel that it's been an evolution through your career? Or do you see it being the same?
Tamara Vrooman 16:31
Yeah, I can ask that question all the time. Is it better or worse? Right? And the answer is, it's neither of those things. It's just different. And I do think that, unfortunately, when we are advocating for change, that never ends, it's never complete, actually, we just find different situations or different reasons to need to continue to push for the change. I mean, the data, the data are not super encouraging, to be candid, you know, when we look at women in STEM or in finance or in infrastructure or in corporate leadership, those numbers have not been growing at the rate that the positions have been growing. So actually, there's fewer women CEOs in any industry in the country today than there was 30 years ago. And in part, that's because we have fewer companies, you know, there's been consolidation, whether it's in the service and engineering field, or whether it's in construction, or whether it's in finance, or retail or energy. There's been some consolidation, which accounts for part of it, but frankly, only part of it, the biggest challenge that we have, I think, is that we want women to be at all parts of an organization. And often I will look at a company and I'll see a lot of women, frankly, at the bottom part of the company, but not fewer in the middle, and then very, very few at the top. And so how do we get women into decision-making roles wherever they may be in the organization I think that's something we still need to work at. And we see that number of women are selecting out, rather than taking on more senior roles because they're not designed for them. They're not designed for people who are managing home life and work life in the same way we create balance at work. But we don't create balance at home and in community and unless both of those are balanced, it's obviously not balanced. So I think there's quite a bit more work to do. Frankly, I'm optimistic. I'm just so inspired by the next generation of women that are in my organization, you know, 26,000 people work at YVR. It's just a very large organization. Super inspiring, super talented, super energetic, but still a lot to do.
Kim Doran 18:42
It's interesting, because that's my role as the chair of the ExcELLEnce ERG. One of the things that we've identified as our biggest challenge is kind of mid-career level women leaving the organization. We've determined, obviously, there's probably a breadth of other reasons, the two of the biggest reasons I think, is women get to a point where they're pushed into a role that they're maybe not ready for, but they feel that they need to take that to continue to advance their career, or second of all, like you're going back to work-life balance, it just becomes too much. And there's just no way to navigate it in a demanding role. So one of the biggest initiatives this year that we are pushing forward is finding ways to support and to grow those mid-career level women. And so one of the recent initiatives we've put forward is a mentorship program where we are specifically targeting those individuals and pairing them up with mentors and meeting them very regularly about those specific concerns. What's going to make you take the next step, what's going to allow you to have the support to really take that next step and what do you need from us, right? And I think that's the biggest thing is just know that they're supported and give them all of the same opportunities that you know, maybe their male counterparts might have in a similar role. So just making sure targeting that.
Tamara Vrooman 20:00
It's super interesting, right? And I wonder, Divyah, if you have a perspective on this, but we're just talking about infrastructure, which is about design and about building things and about the future. Yet, we really need to design our organizations for that future. And what I find is a lot of the time we're trying to put women, particularly I agree with you, mid-career, but that mid-career is what leads to senior career, into roles that were not designed for us, like they were not designed for us. Not surprising, they're designed in my case, you know, 80 years ago. And chances are, they're not designed for modern people anywhere yet we force ourselves into those roles. And in my case, I was very lucky that when, when my family was young, my husband chose to stay at home. And so I had the support. So in a way, I had quite a traditional family structure that allowed me to participate in the roles because they were designed for that structure, just a different gender. But that's just not the reality for most people in terms of having two or more careers, or they're on their own, or living without the support of family in a new community, we have to change the way that we design our organizations so that they're fit for the purpose that we want them to serve, which is to get more diverse people, including women into leadership roles, particularly in an area like infrastructure.
Divya Shah 21:28
I love what you just said, because I think designing roles or making sure that you're giving exceptions, or creating an environment where women in the mid-careers are able to do certain things without having been looked at as to, oh, look, she's gone home again at four o'clock or look we we're supposed to come at three days a week, and she's not come three days a week, because she had to stay at home. and that's bad for the rest of us. And I personally try to fight back against some of those things. But I think there is a lot of work to be done. If we're true to the cause, we should be okay to make more exceptions, because that's how we are creating customization for people that need that time. And it all comes back to trust, I think, weirdly enough, like you've got to trust that your employee is going to be putting in as much as they can. And they're not being opportunistic. That's why you're taking a chance on them. Right? So I feel there's more than just creating things like hybrid work environments. Well, that's great for everybody. But now what are you doing more for certain people who have very young children between one to five? What are you doing for other people who have older people to take care of? So I think the nuance needs to be there more than a generalization. So I would say that's number one, when I think of design, because it's very easy just to put a blanket cover because no one wants to deal with exceptions on a rule basis. Right? So I think that's one thing. The other thing I would say is is mentorship is fantastic. We do a lot of mentorship at work. But I think again, that can be taken one step further to sponsorship. You know, mentorship is a two-way process. Sponsorship is a three-way process where the sponsor is then talking on behalf and you know, Tamara, you said you didn't have role models. And today we do have role models we're lucky at the board, we have so many wonderful women, we have quite a few at CID, at least. And I think there's a lot in all our three different organizations. But it would be great where you actually have, you know, a women sponsorship team or like, you sponsor the talents that are women specifically, and you grow them through the organization. So we're not fighting to climb out and to say, hello, recognize me because we're already not good at saying hello, recognize me, right? So I think we're muted to start with. And so I think, to me, those two things can be added layers as we move forward. But I'm lucky and thank you to all the women before me for being the trailblazers in creating the pathway to you know, being letting me be where I am. But I think yeah, there is still a lot more to do. I truly believe that.
Kim Doran 24:17
And I think there's a lot more to go and kind of just taking a step back to what you've said previously, making it more of a cultural norm for both men and women for those cases where I need to leave work at four o'clock to take my child or I need to you know, stay home when my child is sick. And I find in relationships, it's kind of usually the mom that just does it. It's a prime example. Today, I'm home with my daughter because she has pinkeye, so I'm working from home today. But I think it's also that from an organization's perspective making it more normal that it's okay as a man to also stay home to care for your children and do these things. So I think it comes from like at home perspective as well as in the organization to make it more norm. Parental leave, I know that's one thing, and encouraging that more versus just the mother taking the time off. So I think there's a lot that can be done to help women, but also to educate and to create a new norm for men as well will help with these types of situations.
Tamara Vrooman 25:13
That's so true. You know, we did a study, actually at the bank when I was there, and the credit union around a stay-at-home dads and parental leave, and what stopped our younger male employees from taking their parental leave benefits. And it was interesting, it was all of the things that you said, right? It was fear of looking like they weren't interested in their career, fear of reprisal from their social network. So all of the things, of course, that women have had to endure for many, many years. But until we address those norms, it's going to be difficult, as I said earlier, for us to get work-life balance in the home life equal to our aspirations in work life. And if both those things aren't balanced, then life isn't balanced, right. And so in the area of infrastructure, where we know how to take on a project, where we know how to design it, where we know how to mobilize a bunch of different interests in service of a long-term outcome, I think this sector in particular, can be a leaderful in terms of some of these changes, because it's actually the work that we do every day, in our professional work, how do we really get it embedded in our culture and in our organizations?
Riccardo Cosentino 26:21
This is, this is a great conversation. And I'd like though, to move maybe to the next topic, you're free to touch upon this. But, you know, what are your hope for the future generation of women that are going to come through the universities and then into the workforce? What are your hopes? And what are the words of encouragement to those women not to give up on something or not to get discouraged? What would you tell yourself if you could go back and encourage yourself? And maybe we can start with you, Divya.
Divya Shah 26:52
Thank you, Riccardo, for that question. It's such a great one. I think if I had to look back and tell myself, I would say, number one, have the resiliency to stick with the sector. Tamara, you mentioned this earlier on that infrastructure is, it's such a tangible sector, like what we do, we're truly connecting communities, those communities that connect, there are papers that have been written actually, that show the minute you create a physical bridge that actually allows for economics to grow. And this is a, compared to communities that were not connected, you can actually see the difference. So you know, physical infrastructure makes a difference in lives. And for me, as a professional, I always thought of it as I can touch, feel and see what I have financed, which is you cannot say that for other industries, like you can actually see the difference. And LRT is made in the community or the airport like Tamara, your stories of how you've seen why we are grow and change the face of BC must be great to hear. So I would say I think, you know, yes, it may not seem that flashy grid sector, like investment banking, but I would say it's, it's so much better, and it's so satisfying. So resiliency is important. I would say that there's a lot of us women now in the sector that are truly looking out for other women and young generations who are trying to, you know, actively hire into the workforce, actively bring us out. There are a lot of different networks, Women In Infrastructure is one great one. Every company has a association that makes sure we are catering towards the welfare of women to make sure they grow, they are encouraged to do more than or given greater opportunities, and on an active basis. So I think there's a lot of desire here to show this industry as a forward-looking, progressive industry, as opposed to something that oh, it's you know, it's just infrastructure and it's dry. But I think that there's a lot here, Kim, what do you think about this, I'm sure through your association ExcELLEnce, you must be facing this quite a bit as us.
Kim Doran 29:12
Totally and actually the one thing I really took away from employee resource groups, and also the mentoring and sponsorship programs in our organization is the importance of leveraging and expanding our professional networks. And I think as a woman, we sometimes think it's a bit more difficult. And actually, Tamara touched on this with men's social environment. But you know, finding those ways to connect with male and female colleagues within our organization and within the industry. So attending events like the WIN Awards and the various different platforms and activities that are put on by our industry. And infrastructure is really good for that, specifically. Women in transportation, the women in infrastructure networks, all of those networks are just great things to become involved in to really grow and expand your network. Something else that I would say is really touched me in terms of as I advanced my career and really shadowed by kind of working alongside males in my industry is that don't be afraid to say no. Sometimes I look back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, and I'm the one that's putting up my hand to take the notes in the meeting, or I always want to do something extra. And sometimes I look back to think like, you know, my colleagues as males, why was it me, that was like sticking out my hand always. And yet, maybe I didn't even see the same progression as others. So sometimes just like set your boundaries, and make sure you know when your plate is full, because you're not going to succeed if you're kind of taking on too much. But to that end, balance remains important. It's always important to kind of take that next opportunity and accept challenges. And this is really where growth happens within your career. And that's really what I've taken away with some of the steps that I've taken my career is, if I didn't actually take that challenge, or take that opportunity, I wouldn't be where I was. So it's important to really expose yourself to various aspects within your job within the industry within your career. And again, going back to kind of that, you know, first few years of my career, be confident and speak up, know that your opinion matters. And it's as important as that male colleague sitting beside you, you also are part of this industry. And I think Tamara touched on it as well as having a diverse perspective, you may think that it might be a dumb question, but it may just be a different perspective that you're bringing forth. So I think that has really kind of driven the dynamic and diverse nature of how organizations have grown. So knowing that it might seem like a dumb comment, or a dumb question, or totally out of the box, thinking, it might really bring that next revolution into the industry. So it's important to know that, you know, as a young engineer, or as an engineer growing in your career, or as a professional in the infrastructure industry, your position or your input will really make a difference. And I'm sure, Tamara, you can reflect on that in the various roles that you've played within within your career.
Tamara Vrooman 31:57
Yeah, for sure. I often think, you know, besides thinking back to when I was 20 or 25 or something, what I would tell my younger self. So besides buying more Vancouver real estate, I definitely would have told my younger self to do that. Really, it is about remaining open and curious as well. And so part of risk-taking has to do with confidence, because we all can tell the story of the risks that worked out. And of course, there's many risks that didn't work out. But I found that as long as you stay curious about well, why is this how it is? And how could it be different? Or why does he think that way? Or maybe he hasn't had this experience before. And I could help. And we do have to help men be comfortable with women's leadership and participation, right? Otherwise, we're just talking to ourselves off to the side all the time, and at best, we'd only be at 50%. So it is hard. Change does, particularly at the beginning and we're still I think at the beginning, as I said earlier, it does put more burden on those who are seeking to change. And so I always say, yeah, it's going to require more from you, you're gonna have to put up your hand one more time than otherwise. You're gonna have to put yourself forward in ways that you might not feel comfortable. I totally agree, no is a very powerful word. You'd have to say no in times when others just seem to don't have to have to do that. And so it is about staying open-minded, finding a network, wherever that network is, that will support you and your path, whatever that path may be in infrastructure, and to not be afraid to take on the one more for yourself, but also for those that will follow in, as I said, infrastructure is a particularly important place to have that perspective. Because, contrary to popular belief, infrastructure isn't black and white. There's all sorts of choices that have to be made each and every day for us to build the right kind of infrastructure and create the right kind of infrastructure for the future. And groups like the Women In Infrastructure Network, I belong to a lot of networks, this one is particularly supportive and inclusive, really encourage you to put up your hand and get involved. That's the way we learn and we learn from others as we navigate our own paths forward.
Riccardo Cosentino 34:12
Well, thank you for that. I feel inspired. Thank you, Kim, Divyah and Tamara, for making the time today to join me on this podcast as being an enlightening conversation. I'm sure our guests, our listeners also enjoyed it. Again, once again, thank you for joining and to the listeners, please listen in. The next podcast will be released in two weeks. Sign up, subscribe through your platform. And once again, Kim, Divyah, Tamara, thank you for joining me today.
Tamara Vrooman 34:45
Thanks very much, Riccardo. Thanks, Divyah. Thanks, Kim.
Divya Shah 34:48
Thank you, Tamara. Thank you, Kim.
Kim Doran 34:50
A pleasure to meet you both, Tamara, Divyah.
Riccardo Cosentino 34:56
That wraps up today's episode of A WINning Perspective: the WIN Canada Podcast. I hope you found this episode's conversation as compelling and inspiring as I did. If so, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Navigating Major Programmes, the podcast that aims at elevating the conversation surrounding major programmes. Thank you for tuning in to A WINning Perspective: the WIN Canada Podcast. Let's stay connected and keep the momentum going to empower women and engineer change.