In our first episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cosentino sits down with three nominees of The Women’s Infrastructure Network (WIN) Canada WIN Awards: Marie-Noël Ouellet, Katie Pelly and Yumna Nasir. The panelists share their industry successes, challenges within the male-dominated industry and hopes for the next generation of leaders. “I found that it became a bit easier—or that I wasn’t the only one—when the people around the table became more diverse. So, even though I might still be the only female in certain meetings, if the men are more diverse in their background, then everyone has to try a little harder to connect to each other and therefore, I can fit in a bit more easily in that conversation.” — Katie Pelly
In our first episode of A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast, panel host Riccardo Cosentino sits down with three nominees of The Women’s Infrastructure Network (WIN) Canada WIN Awards: Marie-Noël Ouellet, Katie Pelly and Yumna Nasir. The panelists share their industry successes, challenges within the male-dominated industry and hopes for the next generation of leaders.
“I found that it became a bit easier—or that I wasn’t the only one—when the people around the table became more diverse. So, even though I might still be the only female in certain meetings, if the men are more diverse in their background, then everyone has to try a little harder to connect to each other and therefore, I can fit in a bit more easily in that conversation.” — Katie Pelly
“For sure, I think diversity and diversity of thought specifically. Whether it be diversity of… ” — Yumna Nasir
Key Takeaways:
Marie-Noël Ouellet is responsible for leading the global financing strategy in the infrastructure and energy sectors at CDPQ, which includes investment strategy, portfolio construction, negotiation and transaction structuring, as well as risk management. Under her leadership, the Infrastructure Financing team offers senior and junior debt financing to varied sectors, most notably in the transportation, renewable power and telecommunications sub-sectors. She is also a member of the Infrastructure sector Debt and Equity Investment Committees.
Katie Pelly is a Construction Manager with EllisDon Civil, and is currently the Design-Build Project Director on a large P3 Design-Build transportation project. She holds a bachelor's degree in Civil Engineering from Queen's University, and has 18 years of construction management experience with EllisDon, having taken on a range of roles and responsibilities including leadership, design management and coordination roles on IO, Metrolinx, MTO, TTC and YRRTC projects. Katie has also led various transit P3 Design-Build pursuits, helping to manage and facilitate the direction of EllisDon’s Civil division. Katie is passionate about supporting women, and looks to create meaningful opportunities for women to connect; she is a Board Director with the WTS Toronto Area Chapter and is a member of WIN and CAWIC.
Yumna Nasir, Director of Operations at Plan Group, has been recognized by the International Olympic Committee, Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, International Facilities Management Association, and Canadian Women in Infrastructure. Yumna has proved herself through difficult and unique occupations such as becoming the Facility Manager and Operations Lead for the Toronto 2015 Pan/Parapan Am Games, leading a team of over 70. She then undertook a new adventure leading the charge on developing plans and practices to implement for the first time on the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit Project (largest P3 transit project in North America) as its Property Manager. She is a member of two Program Advisory Committees (APFM and Building Systems Engineering Degree) in order to ensure that industry trends and education are forever married so new graduates have numerous opportunities.
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Riccardo Cosentino 00:05
You're listening to A Winning Perspective, the WIN Canada podcast, which aims to highlight the
challenges but also the wins of a woman in infrastructure. In each episode I, Riccardo
Cosentino, will be sitting down with a panel of women in different areas and stages of their
careers, to ask how the industry can be better at inspiring women to choose a career in, and
how we can support her while she's there. It's my hope that this conversation can elevate the
voices that need to be heard and reach the people who still haven't listened. This podcast is
proudly sponsored by Navigating Major Programmes and hosted by me, Riccardo Cosentino.
Let's get into today's conversation. Hello, everyone and welcome to a new episode of A
Winning Perspective, the WIN Canada podcast. I'm here today with three great infrastructure
leaders. And I will ask them to introduce themselves in a minute. But welcome to the very first
episode of these new podcasts for WIN Canada. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino and we will
have a series of podcasts where we're going to showcase infrastructure leaders in the
infrastructure industry in Canada. But without further ado, let me ask the three guests today to
introduce themselves. Maybe, let's start with Yumna.
Yumna Nasir 01:33
Hi, so my name is Yumna Nasir, I'm the National Director of Operations at Plan Group in the
technology team. So for me, I've gotten into the industry from a very young age, I think I
started when I was a co-op. And I got into the industry because genuinely really loved design.
And I loved buildings and just curious about how buildings impact people and impact how
people live. And that's one of the reasons I'm at Plan Group right now. Because through the
impact of technology, you have the ability to move people in many different ways, whether it's
through the healthcare system, the educational system, and just really make an impact on
people's lives. So that's a little bit about who I am and where I, where I currently am in my
employment and how I started and when I started.
Riccardo Cosentino 02:23
Thank you very much for that. What about you, Katie?
Katie Pelly 02:26
Great. Thanks for having me. My name is Katie Pelly and I am a Design Build Director and
Construction Manager with EllisDon. I've been here about 18 years. So most of my career,
basically. Once I graduated from Queen's University in engineering, jumped right into the
construction industry. And I feel lucky that I save, built one of everything, which isn't quite true.
I haven't built everything yet but, I've built a variety of projects. My very first project was the
Art Gallery of Ontario and now I'm working on a QEW bridge. So, so quite a variety. And I think
that's one thing that's exciting about our industry is all of the opportunities and the various
projects we get to contribute to. Thanks for having me here today.
Riccardo Cosentino 03:15
Thank you for joining us. And then finally, Marie-Noel.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 03:18
Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Marie-Noel Ouellet. I'm a Managing Director at CDPQ. So
I'm responsible for CDPQ's global infrastructures, that's strategy. I joined the firm 18 years ago
as an analyst. And so yeah, I was lucky to get into the infrastructure space no later on in my
career. So I started as a generalist on the credit side and at some point, I was offered to get
into the infrastructure and energy sector as a research specialist. And now given, as you've all
known, given the growth in the infrastructure sector and not the place that the private
investors took on the industry, so I was able to grow my career based on those really important
world factor in the sector, and so I'm sure we will have the opportunity to dig into my
background and share thoughts around the infrastructure sector.
Riccardo Cosentino 04:33
Well, thank you all three for that great introduction. And I'm very pleased to have a variety of
backgrounds on the podcast in so that we can we can explore the experiences in the same
industry but different takes of the same industry. So maybe let me, let's start, let's address the
elephant in the room and let's get that out of the way. But, you know, I always like to ask this,
you know, we work in a male-dominated industry and I think it's important that we recognize
that, and I wanted to get your perspective of what it has been like in your career to work in
such industry? And maybe, you know, were you aware there was gonna be a bit of a (inaudible)
industry, when you first joined? And maybe let's start with you, Katie?
Katie Pelly 05:28
Yeah, it's, it's a very interesting question. Because when I, when I look back to when I first
started and actually even had a student term with EllisDon, I don't think I really fully
understood it was male dominated. And maybe that's part of me being naive or just actually
growing up in school and in university, your family, and your teachers say you can do anything,
and I believed it. So I'll say it was a bit of a shock joining an industry and learning how different
it was from maybe a more equal playing field, but I enjoyed it. So I think that's what's key is,
there were difficult moments, but in enjoying it, I kept going and you look around you and your
friends and, in other industries, and you wonder, and everyone has challenges, but I think it's
the joy of this industry. And I think what Yumna said about giving back that we're really
contributing to something that's real. So I'll say, yes, there was challenges, but at the end of
the day, I think the positives is what can outweigh and keep you going.
Riccardo Cosentino 06:38
What about you, Marie-Noel, I mean, you're slightly different, maybe in your sector, but still
male-dominated maybe in a different way.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 06:46
Yeah, that's true. Maybe, when I first started my career, I started my career in the bank, and I
was surrounded by very talented women. So initially, it was not, it was not a shock to me. In
addition, now, I was lucky enough to get really good support from my boss, who really believed
in me put a lot of trust in me so I was able to grow in the space in, I get a lot of confidence on
what I can can achieve. And I was exposed to various situation because of that trust. Later on
in my career, as now I evolved in more management position. At that time, this is where I felt
like the only one woman around the table. So internally, when I attended some some different
committees, and also, externally, when I had to develop new business, get in, get new, do
some business development, I was the only one. So it was a little bit more challenging. But I
think what helped me know being successful is just rely on my own capability, my skill sets
focus on what I'm good at and try to put aside the differences and focus really on my strengths.
Katie Pelly 08:24
I'll just say I resonate with that. You said a few times you're the only one. And I think I feel that.
But what you also said is you have to refocus. I think if we only focus on that it can become that
hurdle that brick wall you can't get through, but that ability to refocus. I'm interested how you
found those strategies.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 08:46
It's tough. I mean, because I always challenge myself and sometimes when you're surrounded
by people different than you, you want to be like them, and you think if you're not, you will not
succeed. So you need to be not really focused. You need to make sure that as I said before, I
was surrounded by people who trusted me. So making sure that you get your support, get also
feedback from the people around you in order to adapt, if you have some doubts, if you think
you're not on the right track, it's really important to get some feedback in order to elevate
yourself to the next level.
Yumna Nasir 09:35
That's a very, very good way to put it, Marie-Noel , what Katie said that focus is so hard to
achieve. I feel like being the odd one out in the table, you just have to have that kind of
determination. Right? And I always think of it as like a persistent voice. And you have to
continue, continue continue no matter how hard it gets so long as you've done your homework
in the background. And you understand the ins and outs, the risks, the opportunities, you've
gotten colleagues on board with, hey, this is an idea I have, or this is, you know, a solution I'm
bringing to the table. So long as you maintain that persistence, eventually, it'll, it'll come
around. But I think when you are the oddball, it takes just that much more time, right?
Especially like that visible minority, you know, you're just like, okay, they're gonna expect
something from me, or they're gonna expect nothing from me, what's the radar on this room as
I walk into it. And so it's fun, I think it's a bit of a challenge. For sure, you have to do your
homework more than other people I find, but it's a, it's well worth it at the end, because we get
to leave our footprints on these buildings for decades and decades to come, which is really
phenomenal. And I think why a lot of us do what we do.
Katie Pelly 10:50
I'll say, I found that it maybe became a bit easier, I or at least I didn't feel as much as the only
one when the people around the table became more diverse. So even though I might still be
the only female in certain meetings, if the men are more diverse in their backgrounds, I feel
like everyone then has to try a little bit harder to connect to each other. And therefore, I can fit
in a bit more easily I think in that conversation. So it's good to see diversity becoming more
important in the industry as a whole, I think.
Yumna Nasir 11:26
For sure, I think diversity and diversity of thought, specifically, whether it's through gender,
whether it's through color, and whether it's through ages of people, it has a true impact to a
project, right, you want to be able to understand struggles at every level, especially when
you're building infrastructure because we're doing it, most of us are, on this podcast, we're
doing it for major projects, right, real projects that impact lives of the public. And having that
diversity of thought to say, I know this, or I went through this, or this is my experience coming
from this country, really helps change how we do the design, how we again, navigate through
it. So diversity of thought to me to Katie's point, like it builds better teams, it just makes us that
much stronger, helps us remove the blind spot. So I'm all for it. And I want the industry to push,
push, push push for that change. It's my biggest hope.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 12:20
To get the support from the organization. Do you see, so how the diversity, how do you end all
the diversity in your organization?
Yumna Nasir 12:31
We don't have specific targets that we hit per se, we do believe in the best person that's
qualified for that job. But with that being said, like if you look around at Plan Group, you will see
diversity in people. Like every time I got up, you know, I have people from all over the world at
very different ages. I think for myself, I'm a great example of that to a woman, a woman of
color being very young. You know, it's just, they've had that ability to accept me and accept my
thoughts and ideas I bring. And of course, I have to use my platform to encourage more people.
So it's individuals such as myself and other team members that we continue to show. This is
where we belong here. And this is what the true impact is. But we make it a point to make sure
that it's the right person for that job, we're gonna make sure that they succeed. And not just
like attracting talent, but actually making sure that we can support them long term, we see
their growth, long term at the company. It's going to be a culture that resonates with them and
is curated to support them. I think that's important because as we get older, especially as
women, there are certain challenges that we face, right? And staying in the industry and
supporting women in the industry to be here longer. I mean, I'm passionate about that. And I
know, Katie, you have a family. And you're very, very proud of it. And I like I want you to talk
about how you navigate through that as well. Right? Because that's a big part of our growth
and us being strong leaders.
Katie Pelly 14:04
Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, I have a six and eight-year-old. So two kids. Early on, I
think I, on one hand, I was fearful of taking that break, not and maybe just because I'd never
seen someone do that at work. But I knew what I want in my life and you just jump in and go
for it. And in the end, I've had some of my best success over those years. And I truly believe I
changed as a person. I learned more empathy. I learned how to have patience, I learned
actually some really good life skills to bring into my work environment. Maybe skills other
people already have, but I know I learned them through the joys of motherhood there but I'll
say one thing that's really encouraging actually, is even in a construction industry, there's a
number of men who are taking leave now when they're having their kids and it levels the
playing field. You know, anyone who is the age of having kids might take time off work. It's not
just, oh, she might take time off because she's gonna have kids. So I know the first men who
did that, you know, had to show some bravery in doing that. And it gets easier and easier. And I
think it's, sometimes, it's those little things I think that can help all of us in the industry. Yeah,
yeah, thanks for bringing it up. I really do have joy with my kids, and I love telling them about
about my work day. So.
Yumna Nasir 15:36
Oh, that's amazing. And to your point, like, actually, I am working with one of my male
colleagues on my team, to support how he works in the industry with having a young family he
has, you know, three kids. And it's not just about you now, like, you know, a woman trying to
manage it, like, yeah, men have to do the same. They're stepping up to the table, which allows
us all to work equally, which is exciting.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 16:00
And I see that on my team. I have a lot of young father and then they, right now, no, it's not
just the responsibility of a woman. Of course, we embrace that role and we want to be, it's
important for us, I think, to maintain that good balance between family and work. But I see it on
my team that men are taking more, are taking on more responsibility. But I think women, what
we're good at is being really well organized, really effective. I think that's something we should
be proud of. And that's something we learn when we become a mother, making sure we're well
organized, we have support from the family in order to succeed and also to get some flexibility
from our employer in order to manage the priorities and make sure that we keep that good
balance.
Katie Pelly 17:15
Well, that's how the industry is changing, too, right? It's get your work done. It's not necessarily
sit in a seat. So I think that's helping out, you know. I like your confidence, though, there. You
said, Marie-Noel, you know, women are great at so many things. And I know not everyone can
see it, but I saw your smile when you said that. And I can tell you believe it. And I think that's
part of like, we have to build each other up. Like, you know, we each know we're great and
we're able to push and get into the roles we're really enjoying. But giving that back and seeing
that in other females, I think is so important, too.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 17:54
That's interesting, Katie, that you're bringing that because, yeah, I say that we're good at but
it's not typical for women to showcase themselves. No, that's really different for men and
women. So we're not comfortable at speaking out loud, to really takes some risks. That's not
part of our actually, it's not, it's not part of me. We're not like that. Whereas men are not shy
away to showcase what they've done, or apply to a new job, even though they don't cross, tick
all the boxes. So I think we should be more proud of our self and not be scared of identifying
our strengths, I think.
Katie Pelly 18:51
And maybe if if an individual is having a hard time doing it themselves, like advocating for each
other, like seeing when someone else is great, and raising them up if they don't feel like
shouting it from the rooftop that day, I guess.
Riccardo Cosentino 19:06
I have a question. I mean, and then this is, it's a question for you three, but it's really directed
and maybe helping people, young women that are thinking of entering the industry. And it's a
question about, being in a male-dominated industry, it's now so much male-dominated, but like
being a minority, is it intimidating? Have you ever felt oh, my God, I'm walking into a
boardroom, I look around and it's just men and I am terrified. Does that happen? And if it does,
what would you say to a young woman that is terrified at that idea?
Yumna Nasir 19:45
I mean, I can start on that if you guys like. Yes, I'm gonna say especially when you're new or
into it, it is intimidating. I remember when I was doing one of our jobs. It was nice to see that I
wasn't The only person intimidated for the first time when I walked in, and this was a very
visible, I'll give you the example. So on this job, one of the jobs that we have is to be able to
coordinate a series of legal actions, right, that happen in terms of the projects moving forward.
And the legal team, for example, was very, very, very dominated by women. So for the first
time, there was an entire boardroom filled with women, and I was working with them, you
know, kind of in the background, before most of my team members that were heavily male-
dominated from the construction side, got to be part of that. So I was sitting there, setting it up,
setting up the conference with them, and then in come the males. They're coming in the
construction director, the senior project manager, et cetera. And you can just see in their face
that they're actually terrified and they're actually nervous. So I think it happens to everyone. I
think it happens to everyone that they've noticed, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm different or something is
changed, or something is different. And initially, again, they're gonna have that thought. But
my advice to women and to men that are coming in new into this is you're there for a reason,
you're there because you belong. You just have to have that determination. You have to come
to the table with your homework done. Be prepared. And when you're prepared, you're going to
get that confidence and people will see through your actions of your work your ability to prove
yourself and that's gonna help you gain that level of confidence, gain that level of trust. So then
next time and the time after, it doesn't become much of a thing. You kind of have that casual
flow, you're not coming into the meeting making jokes, and you know the team members
around the table. You have that better relationship with them. So I think, yes, but over time, it's
not a big deal anymore.
Katie Pelly 21:57
Like they say, oh, go ahead.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 21:59
Even though you're saying exactly what I'm doing the answer I wanted to, to provide. So it's
okay to have some doubts. We all have doubts. We're all have our fears. My CEO has some
fears, I do have some fears. Be prepared. I think that's the really important thing. So. So I think
you're brought up really the most important items. And if you think you cannot do it, just fake
it. And yeah. (Inaudible)
Yumna Nasir 22:40
You said it, Riccardo.
Katie Pelly 22:44
I think I'm going to take a bit of a different angle. And maybe it's that every single table I ever
went to in my early days only had men at it. So I couldn't, I was forced not to be nervous going
into into it because of that reason alone. But I'd like to say, you know, like, don't, as a female,
focus on is it men or female, like, first and foremost, try and just see everybody as people, you
know, like, I might not want to be seen as the only female I just want to be seen as one of the
people around the table. So I think for me that that helped me in my early days, just saying
we're all people and I don't know if that's exactly the right strategy. I think my more recent
days, I think I'm more like, yeah, yeah I'm a female and ready to shout it and be proud of that.
But if you're nervous being the only one try and find those connections with other people, like
reach out to somebody before the meeting, trying to have a connection with someone, because
once you have a similarity with somebody, and that connection, it creates a bit of a bond, and it
kind of brings those tensions down. And then you realize you are all just you know, people
trying to contribute to something. And then if you still feel nervous, I like to say if you're
nervous, you're learning. If you're confident and you're going in like it's no big deal, you've
probably done it before and you're not challenging yourself. So some days now when I get
nervous for a meeting, I like to remember oh, yeah, like, this is exciting. I must be learning
from this experience. So that's my take on it.
Riccardo Cosentino 24:12
Thank you. Okay, I want to switch gears a little bit. I mean, this is the WIN Canada podcast and
this is your past nominees of the WIN awards. So I think it'd be good to touch upon the your
nomination and then what your nomination did for you. How did you fail? And maybe, Katie,
since you had the mic, maybe let's start with you.
Katie Pelly 24:36
Yeah, sure. And maybe I'll say I really appreciate it. The nomination. It made me feel supported
as someone in my company had nominated me and then having that out there and I'll say,
secondly, the award ceremony and the organizer's nation itself, WIN Canada, is creating those
connections. So kind of what I was just saying, like, you can excel more in your career, you can
feel more confident when you feel connected to the people around you. And if they're not in
your immediate work team, if they're in the industry throughout a networking event, and you
know, seeing that early on in my career and feeling that connection, going to a WIN Canada
event and seeing your powerful women that was so inspiring. So being nominated and getting
to kind of be part of that club, it actually, really did mean a lot. And I think, you know, helps you
keep going.
Riccardo Cosentino 25:34
What about you, Yumna?
Yumna Nasir 25:35
From the WIN perspective? I think we're, I think from the nomination itself, I think for me, when
I was nominated, it was actually, really amazing, really remarkable. It was very, very, very
young, was in the emerging leaders category, of course. And I think what it did for me was, it
didn't just highlight myself as a leader in the industry or an emerging leader in the industry. But
it really shone a light on my team at that time as well. My team was fairly junior. And we were
part of a really big team with really big caliber of individuals coming all around the world, all
sorts of engineering backgrounds. And there was little (inaudible) leading the team, right. So it
really helped kind of showcase to my team, the broader team in the sense that there's
something here and their team is doing something, right. And it wasn't just attention that I had
gotten from my internal team or the team I was managing at that time. It was the attention
from our client team. And the client team actually came out this was Metrolinx and City of
Toronto, they actually came out to the WIN awards, right, and to come and support me so to
have, like a whole slew of your team members come a whole slew of your clients come in at the
end of the day, they provided me with a trophy with Wonder Woman glued right onto it, to say,
you are our leader already, you know, just to help kind of solidify that fact, which was really
amazing. And my male counterparts are looking at me like, did you, what? What are you guys
doing there? We're having such issues and here you guys are laughing in meetings, getting
things done, getting trophies, what kind of world are you guys living in? And they saw, you
know, the, again, the validity in the team or the amount of work that we were doing to be able
to get this kind of recognition and why it was being honored. So I think that's what it provided
for me. It was not just myself, but my team as well. And it was an awesome outing for my team.
It's another social bonding event between our clients and our team members. So I know from
Plan Group this year, I've also nominated an individual and I'm hoping to have her have that
same kind of experience and give her that same kind of love and support that I experienced.
And just pay it forward, honestly.
Katie Pelly 27:51
You've passed it on. That's wonderful.
Yumna Nasir 27:54
Yeah, yeah. It's exciting. I'm like, over I think I'm more excited than she is.
Katie Pelly 27:59
You're vicariously living through her, yeah?
Yumna Nasir 28:01
Oh, yeah. Because I love it. I mean, it's such a good way to recognize people. And what I say to
my team member is, yeah, I'm recognizing you. And the only thing I ask of you, is that you you
do it forward as well. Right? Keep it going.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 28:16
Wow. On my side, it was, it was a surprise, I never thought that I will be nominated for this type
of reward. So it was a kind of reality check for me. And an opportunity to reflect on what I have
done in the sector over all these years. So, it feels good when you're recognized by your peers
and see that you're really making a contribution to the industry. So we all work. Each day we
are focusing on the work to be done. But afterwards, you see, okay, you know, what I'm doing
is recognized by other members. So it's great. And I think it's a it's a good way to boost your
confidence and continue put all the efforts and in the same way.
Katie Pelly 29:34
I know every year I like logging in and reading the profiles of all the nominees. It's not always
about the win. It's about just being recognized and nominated and getting to see each year all
the great new names. So I appreciate what WIN Canada is doing.
Yumna Nasir 29:55
And I selfishly do it because I want to see who is the greatest in the industry that I can bring on
on the team. It's a great hiring list.
Riccardo Cosentino 30:04
On that note, you know, I think you all pre test upon, you know, being nominated and I think it's
a good segue maybe to talk about mentorship and you know, people that have helped in your
career, and especially the relation that you've had with maybe men, male mentors, or have you
been lucky enough to have female mentors? And, maybe comment on that ally ship and
mentorship? Is that is that an important consideration in the success of your career?
Marie-Noel Ouellet 30:38
I can start, I think mentorship, coaching, networking are three important pieces in your career.
We touched on that earlier, early on, and during this conversation, so the importance of have
support around you, you're not building your career alone. So you need people that helped you
that guide you. And so for me, so it helped me boosting my confidence and my motivation. It
also helped me develop different skill sets. When I started my career, I focused on my technical
skills. But at some point, you have to develop a new set of skills in order to progress in just
having people around you in order to view problems with a different angle. Maybe sometimes
when we face a problem, alone, it seems impossible to resolve. But, we're all working on a
team. So working with a mentor, helps you unliking different difficult situations.
Katie Pelly 32:13
How did you find a mentor? Or did it just happen?
Marie-Noel Ouellet 32:16
We have formal programs internally. So that's a great way to two, that's a great way to develop
the network. But you can, I had also informal mentor that came from different relationship that
I had with people around me. So I think it's important to me to have access and develop these
relationships. More formal relationship could be interesting, because sometimes it's more
defined and it and then you're going maybe you can push another relationship further and
develop different skill set that you cannot find around you. But building also this network
internally and more informally, is also really important.
Katie Pelly 33:11
It's like, yeah, I don't I don't feel like I had a formal mentor in my career. So yeah, I'm gonna let
you go next. If you had any mentorship experience, yeah.
Yumna Nasir 33:21
I've had several mentors throughout the years, and I've been lucky enough that they do
happen naturally. And, I've had mentors, I've had sponsors, and I think both are necessary,
Katie, I'm sure that you will talk about sponsorship, because that's a big part. But for me, the
mentor in the mentorship I got was amazing. And it, honestly, I can say it's because of that
mentorship, I am where I am today. Again, I came onto the industry very, very, very young. So
to be able to be under someone's wing and guidance to help you just navigate, whether it's the
technical side, but also managing your emotions. When you get into some of these meetings,
and you're meeting with some of the very most senior people, whether it's on the government
side or for private companies, going into a very young, you're just like a fish out of water a little
bit. And having that mentor there to help calm your nerves and help get that feedback was
incredibly important. And I think for me, it's back to the passing along. Once you receive that
kind of guidance, that mentorship that allows you to get into where you are in your career that
you can determine yet it is successful. I am happy. I am comfortable in my own skin. It's your
job to pass it along as well. And like help the younger generation understand how they develop
and how they grow. And I think it's a huge part of why I do what I do. One through is formally at
work, of course, and then also through getting involved in the industry through colleges and
universities. I know for myself, I sit on a program advisory committee at Conestoga College
where I graduated from and I work with three of their degree programs at the college level to
figure out what do they need? What's in the industry? What are we really asking for, for today?
Because especially on the construction and technology side, it's evolving on a day to day basis.
Right? So what do our graduates need most now, and sometimes it is technical. But most of the
times it's taking that technical skill and being able to manage it from an emotional perspective,
a human perspective and translate between disciplines. And I think people forget often, you
know, managing big projects, the technical portion, is a very small portion at the end of it, how
you coordinate how you navigate through financial teams, legal teams, you know, delivery
teams on site, the trades, how do you communicate between all of them through a series of
conversations? And how do you have them? And I think when you have mentors, you can have
those open conversations to get guidance about how did they do it, where did they fall, what
they learn, and gain a little bit more in your pocket of skills and tricks and tools that will help
you along. So I've been very fortunate, which is why I like passing it along as much as possible.
But if you're able to get one out of school, you know, through your co-op programs and develop
relationships hold on to them, you might think it's just a job. It can be more than that. And it
can help you grow. And I've had mentors that even when I leave a project or position or finish a
project, they stay with me, right? And that's important. At least for me, it's extremely
important.
Katie Pelly 36:34
Now, it's good to hear, I'm actually quite heavily involved in WTS. It's Women in Transportation
organization, I'm on the board. And one of the initiatives is a formal mentorship program where
they bring together mentors and mentees. And I really like seeing that. And I think because it's
something I didn't necessarily have when I was growing up. So it's it's good to see formal and
informal mentoring, but yeah, I, the angle I like to look at is the difference between sponsorship
and mentorship which you brought up. And sponsorship in my understanding, I think Google
says it too, is it's having someone advocate for you when you're not necessarily in the room.
And I think that's so critical in that you can progress in your career and get opportunities in
very small but very meaningful ways. So it could be as simple as making sure you're copying
somebody more junior on an email, trusting someone to do a certain task or you know, when
their name comes up, or bringing their name up and saying, you know, I believe in this person, I
think they could do this. And then it can even evolve into what I like to call a champion. So I
feel very thankful to the few champions I had who promoted me. And that's in the formal sense,
they promoted me, but even in the informal sense, they believed I could take more on so I think
that's important. For me, that's how I try and give back is really trying to advocate for others
who might not be as seen. But you know, I want to believe in them. I want to put their name
forward. Yeah.
Riccardo Cosentino 38:23
Okay, maybe another another topic I'd like to explore is, you know, I think we touched upon at
the beginning, when we were discussing about being in a male-dominated industry, but
retention of women in the industry is is a challenge, right? I think I was reading some stats that,
you know, there's a lot of women entering more than they used to be. But by mid-career, most
of them are gone. So obviously, you're still here. Any insight, any advice, any thoughts on this
subject?
Katie Pelly 38:58
I think it's about creating connections with our junior people. I'll leave it at that and see if you
guys agree or have a different thought on it.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 39:06
I agree with you, Katie, I think we should think more broadly. So what we do internally is, so we
created a rotation program. So sometimes we don't have that opportunity or role that fits
perfectly with women's ambition. But we have different opportunity within the organization and
we have a rotation program where people can move from a team to another and learn and
learn a new, a new role, a new industry. So that's a way for us to improve the retention. I think
young professional, they all want to learn. So that's something we, we are not focusing
internally in order to improve the retention. Sometimes also women are afraid to access to the
next level, because they have fear that they will fail, or they're not ready for the job. Or they
think that they cannot achieve down this good work balance. There's good balance between
family and work. So that's, that's a reason I think , Riccardo, big reason why sometimes we lose
some, some people so on that we need to provide some flexibility for that woman. I think
having the ability to work virtually, is helping giving that that flexibility. And we talk about
mentorship, sponsorships, we need to make sure that these talented young woman have the
right ecosystem to succeed. And we need to make sure that we provide that support in order
for them to, to grow.
Katie Pelly 41:36
I like that an informal program to change your role to try out new things. Because I think one
reason I know we lose people is they might not be speaking up, like they're not perfectly happy
in their role. And they might not know they can say something about it or, you know, so you're
if you're giving them opportunities to change your role and try other things, you're almost
getting ahead of it. The way I'm trying to combat that is to is to create that connection with
people and try and hear from them. Are you happy in your role? Is there something more you
want to learn? Can you take on more and a more organic way of you know, developing their
role or changing their role than then being able to change a team. But like (inadible).
Marie-Noel Ouellet 42:20
I do that also, Katie, you're raising in a very good point. Having in place some development
program, make sure that the woman have the opportunity to reflect on where they want to go
with skills they want to develop is probably another tool in order to improve the retention.
Katie Pelly 42:48
Because I think about the jobs the three of us are in, I don't know if we would have known that
these were even the exact roles that were available when we first started. I think, I know for
me, I just wanted to learn more, do more and kind of find that way. And it's some of it's having
patience, but it's you know, someone kind of showing you, oh, there's this opportunity over
there. There's that opportunity and being your champion, like he said, like you can do this. So
yeah.
Yumna Nasir 43:12
I think a lot of it is patience, to be honest. Just quietly, patiently, (inaudible) yes, but I think
Marie-Noel, you hit it on the head, for sure, with that flexibility. I think especially as you get into
your mid-career, you know, the focus is you're in that term of your life, where it's gonna switch
to family and not just coming in and working, you know, 70-hour, 80-hour weeks every week,
just because the project was interesting and unique, it's going to change a little bit. And having
that flexibility with your hours and having that flexibility with start times, end times to be able
to cater to, you know, school schedules is key. I know that's one of the things that we like to do,
a Plan Group is we're very cognizant of that. Because it's not about again clocking in, you know,
9am or 8am. And clocking out, it's like, did you get the job done? Did you do it well? And if you
did, I don't really care where you are. Right? So long as that's, that's on the table. First and
foremost. And I think the the other thing that you mentioned, I just want to highlight on this, for
me, it's the career planning, right? I don't, at this point, like even hire people, if I don't have a
five-year career plan in my head of what that role is gonna look and feel like and what they're
going to do in the diversity of the things that they're going to do to keep them engaged.
Because if you're going to hire talented people, they need to be engaged, they need their mind
to keep working on something new, something different, something that's going to push them,
otherwise they're gonna leave, whether it's for family or whether it's for other reasons, out of
just pure boredom, right? So so long as you have that career path in place for them and you
actively work on it, look at it every year, twice a year, it's better to say are we on the same
page? Is this where we want to go? You want to try this? I know that you're doing 80% of
something that you already know we're gonna throw you into 20% of something you have no
idea about, just to give you an exposure and maybe that's some thing that they like, I know I,
you know, pivoted my career, because my hobby project became too big. You know, and now
it's my full time job just focusing on the technology side of construction instead of just the
construction of construction. So, you know, I think, flexibility, career planning, it all helps.
Katie Pelly 45:18
I want to, yeah, I want to touch on flexibility. And I wholeheartedly agree with flexibility. The
one thing that irks me a little is, is when women and flexibility get tied together as this
necessary thing. And sometimes on the negative Oh, that the female needs more flexibility.
What I like to say is, a team that has flexibility is a better performing team. And I say that
because in my team, there's a lot of men on my team, and I like to give flexibility. And to me,
flexibility isn't less hours necessarily. It means this week, no problems came up. No worries, do
what you need to do, oh, this week, there's a problem at work, oh, Friday at 5pm. Something
critical happened. The site needs you, that flexibility is when home needs you, or when work
needs you. And you end up being better at home and you're better at work. You know, I can
actually work those long weeks, but on the time that I'm able to do what I want to do, it's not
about working less. And I think it's not just about females. And I think behind every man with a
flexible work schedule, their partner is probably able to achieve more in their career. So I really
enjoy giving flexibility too, to men, because I think I'm helping that female partner on the other
side, in this roundabout way. So yeah, I don't know if you agree with that. That's my thoughts
on flexibility.
Riccardo Cosentino 46:53
Okay, I think this was a great conversation. We're coming up, coming up to the end of this
podcast. But the before we wrap up, I'd like to pose to you each one of you a final question,
leaving you the final remarks. And the final question is really about, it's pretty broad. It's about
what are your hopes for the industry? Especially thinking that there are young women are
considering a career in this industry? And so with that in mind and with your career in mind,
what would you hope a 10-year-old girl is going to experience in 15 years when they enter the
industry?
Katie Pelly 47:40
I'll say it's related to how I started, I started with all this energy, not knowing it was male
dominated, or this man's world. So I believe that young people are in that spot already. So my
hope is when these young, confident females join the workforce. It's no different than then their
confident life that they grew up in, that we're keeping the wind in their sails that, you know, it's
that they never even know that there's this divide. That's my ultimate hope. And I think that's
keeping, you know, they enjoy it from day one, they're pushing hard, of course, there's going to
be lots of challenges, but they're enjoying it. And those challenges aren't related to being the
only one in the room. So that's my hope.
Marie-Noel Ouellet 48:30
Riccardo, I will not give you an answer about diversity, but maybe my hope for the
infrastructure sector timing. So what we, what is keeping us busy right now, right now is
creating a sustainable world. So infrastructure, players are all engaged in that direction. So I'm
really proud and of having financed on the first new renewable projects in the early years in
Canada, we're really engaged in in building new renewable and green infrastructures across
globally. So I think infrastructure is evolving rapidly so I hope that there will be women that
would be interested in and curious in joining this industry and continue the work that we, that
have done, that you all have done in building a greener ecosystem.
Yumna Nasir 49:57
That's amazing. And it it leads a little bit to mine, in my hopes, and my hopes is for the industry
to innovate. And to your point, we need to focus on the energy side. And when I say innovate, I
don't just mean it from a perspective of technology, because we need to, we absolutely need to
keep getting better and pushing the boundaries and testing new things out. But it's also
innovate, just with the thoughts that we have. Right? Break that barrier, the industry is so
known for doing the same thing, or being stuck in their ways. It's time for a bit of a change, it's
time to push the boundary. And what I mean by that is, yes, you need that diversity of thought
that we talked about previously, different people, different skill sets at the table. Even now, at
Plan Group Tech, you know, we're not looking at just engineers coming in to innovate. We've
got someone on our team that you know, was a former nurse. And now she's going into doing
the integration for all of our major hospitals. Because guess what, she's lived it, she knows it.
And now she's doing the engineering behind it as well, which is very, very cool for us to see.
But it's different, different thing. Different thing? It's a different way of thinking. And it's a
different way of thinking to allow us to get better, allow us to innovate. And it not just helps on
the technology and the building side but it also helps on the human side of things, because
they're just getting that much better. So my hope for the industry is to change and think of
different ways to do things to innovate, innovate in every aspect. And I hope the five-year-old
that is coming and thinking about how to build buildings has that opportunity to see that and
it's just the norm for them. They look at us like Marie-Noel, Katie, Yumna, you old ladies, what
are you talking about? You know? That's just how it is. What do you mean, you had that as an
issue? Wow, that's our cake. You know, and I can't wait for the day. I'm told that, you know.
Katie Pelly 51:51
Yeah. It's already happening. You know, that my young (inaudible) can't believe we printed all
our drawings out and had a drawing table. Everything's on a tablet. So that's a very small,
small thing. I know. You're talking about much grander innovation, but I really do believe both
of your hopes are going to come true.
Riccardo Cosentino 52:11
Thank you. Thank you for those insightful conclusions. I want to thank you all three, Marie-Noel,
Katie, Yumna, for joining me today this was a phenomenal conversation. To the listeners,
please follow on us on the podcast platforms where you get your podcasts and follow us on
LinkedIn and please tune in for the next episode, which is going to be coming out in two weeks.
Thank you very much. That wraps up today's episode of A Winning Perspective, the WIN
Canada podcast. I hope you found these episode's conversation as compelling and inspiring as I
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